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Igor
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1 hour ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

Because that's a bit of a slog, especially if the bootloader's going to need regular updates...

 

Most of Armbian is universal and unrelated to specific hardware feature that would be developed or maintained by specific HW vendor. There is a lot outside this area and daily maintenance costs of Armbian project are already around 2000 EUR. "Customers" contribution is around 10 - 15 EUR per day, hw vendors covers a few, while all the rest is paid by us, developers and maintainers ... Why I am saying this? Because resources are long gone, we can't possibly expand them and there were "1000 of people" before you asked for some improvement ... we also keep some of them in a separate forum section but TBH most of the developers ("you" compensate 0% of their time) don't have time to care what "customers" needs. Some small things users would provide a beer for, can easily costs hundreds of working hours * n ... mission impossible.

 

If you want to improve your support level, start here:

https://forum.armbian.com/forum/54-help-wanted/ (save time to those that saves time for everybody)

https://github.com/armbian/build/issues (helps everybody)

https://forum.armbian.com/subscriptions/ (cover costs you create by asking questions that contributes nothing)

 

If you seriously want this installer to work better or to improve this or that, welcome to organise and finance its refactoring, development, research, ... There was one try a year back, but lead developer lost interest. I don't even know how and where we start that talk. Was it on forum, github, irc, ...

 

Currently we try to improve armbian-config tool. You can observe how little resources are currently around to start dealing with this:

 

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Armbian is a community driven open source project. Do you like to contribute your code?

1 hour ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

I have paid money for a commercial product with support,

 

I explained you how is support with community supported open source software. Like Armbian, Debian or many other community projects in general. 99.9% of the software you use has nothing to do with "commercial support" you might have with your HW vendor. It's their choice and expense what level of support they will provide for you. 

 

You were complaining about the software we have created and we maintain. That's why I have reproduced some stuff especially for you. Even you have noticed it before, it seems you don't get it. Your relationship remains intolerant and you are trying to put a blame on me as being hostile.

 

1 hour ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

I'll be honest: if I'd know about your user-hostile attitude

 

I told you that we have no resources to work on your ideas and that we owe you nothing. What is hostile in that? Did I perhaps use impolite wording to express my frustration which is being unable to help you?

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35 minutes ago, Igor said:

You were complaining about the software we have created and we maintain.

 

No, I was not: I was asking the vendor of the network attached storage device I paid for if there was a convenient way of upgrading its bootloader. Your input was neither requested nor desired.

 

37 minutes ago, Igor said:

I told you that we have no resources to work on your ideas and that we owe you nothing. What is hostile in that?

 

Perhaps this is a language barrier thing, so allow me to be clear: you are being extremely hostile. When people post on this specific sub-forum, it's with the expectation they're engaging in a professional discourse with the people who support the device they paid for - i.e. Kobol. They are not attacking you personally, nor the Armbian project: they, like I, simply want to get the device they paid for to work as promised. Jumping down their throat claiming that "we owe you nothing" and demanding additional payment on top of the device cost is hostile.

 

I'm a technology journalist, and I've already published two reviews of the Helios64 and Armbian on the Helios64. Given your attitude, I will be updating those reviews to warn that unless you're willing to either write the code yourself or contribute to Armbian's - absolutely ridiculous, from your claims - running costs you will not be able to seek assistance with the software - even from Kobol itself - without being attacked. I will further recommend that readers avoid the Armbian project as a whole, and any device which relies upon it.

 

I feel that you've lost sight of the goals of your project: what is an operating system without its users?

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33 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

Your input was neither requested nor desired.

 

43 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

When people post on this specific sub-forum, it's with the expectation they're engaging in a professional discourse with the people who support the device they paid for - i.e. Kobol.

 

This is public forum, just not regulated by Armbian staff. This is still not one to one professional technical support session. You paid for the device or some support with vendor which relationship is not my business, but support efforts in general are almost entirely covered by this large grey zone.

I don't want anything from you if you expect anything from me - we operate on your donations, which are free willing act. If one don't give or help with anything (for what you already got) it's a moral problem one have to live with. If you want support, request is denied and reasons represented. If you ask for some features to add, welcome to tinance things ... if you put a pressure on vendor that they will have to fix this and that instead of lazy community donators, I will stand on their side. Their support capacity also have limits. You challenge that limited capacity all the time while they have less/no weapons to fight back.
 

47 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

Perhaps this is a language barrier thing, so allow me to be clear: you are being extremely hostile.

 

Now tell me how to represent you facts that might be conflicting with your ideas and beliefs in less hostile way? Bear in mind that reality is actually harsher. 

 

58 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

They are not attacking you personally, nor the Armbian project

 

I intentionally used quotes to make it impersonal since this problem is not personal.

 

58 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

simply want to get the device they paid for to work as promised.

 

That is between you and them. Still anyone is allowed to question this relationship. Linux is a community project and where is the line where supports end?

 

1 hour ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

either write the code yourself or contribute to Armbian's - absolutely ridiculous

 

Ridiculous are users wishes. You don't cover download server electricity, while you want to have software support level worth billions. This is how things looks from our perspective which you completely ignore. It's just your personal problem and a duty of HW vendor to support you ...

 

1 hour ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

Jumping down their throat claiming that "we owe you nothing" and demanding additional payment on top of the device cost is hostile.

 

What is hostile? Using Armbian with surrounding infrastructure without contributing anything in return? Perhaps extreme offence when asking for more?  I know that just rare people see what do they get ... (searching for best ones could take hours, but is good enough):
 

 

 

33 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

I'm a technology journalist, and I've already published two reviews of the Helios64 and Armbian on the Helios64.  Given your attitude, I will be updating those reviews

 

:o Intimidating people that donates their free time to keep software on top level, well maintained and reliable? And in this case even helping advancing professional career. As an opinion maker you have even bigger responsibility to understand and see the background. The whole package. 

 

1 hour ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

I feel that you've lost sight of the goals of your project: what is an operating system without its users?

 

Perhaps you don't know what we actually do?

 

Have a nice weekend!

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7 minutes ago, Igor said:

You paid for the device or some support with vendor which relationship is not my business

 

And yet you seem very keen to make it your business. Even when your input is clearly unwelcome.

 

I wonder how much of the claimed €2,000 a day running costs could be reduced if you didn't spend your time writing posts about how you have no time to fix bugs?

  

6 minutes ago, Igor said:

Intimidating people

 

Nothing to do with intimidation, everything to do with ensuring people know what to expect - and what they can expect is an absolute inability to request support with something that's clearly broken without being attacked by you. It's literally my job to warn people about things like that.

 

7 minutes ago, Igor said:

If you want support, request is denied and reasons represented.

 

I don't want support from you. I'd be happy if you never spoke to me again. I would like support from Kobol. On this, the Kobol forum. Linked from the Kobol website. For the purpose of customer support.

 

@gprovost Is this really the project you want to tie your company to?

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54 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

spend your time writing posts about how you have no time to fix bugs?

 

54 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

request support with something that's clearly broken without being attacked by you. It's literally my job to warn people about things like that.

 

We fix bugs every day, while you are not in a position to put any pressure on that efforts. That's the point!
 

54 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

I don't want support from you.

 

Being extremely supportive or being extremely hostile changes nothing in term of support from end users side. It never reached over 1% of the total costs. It's about your attitude towards community developed software. 

 

54 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

I'd be happy if you never spoke to me again.


If I am polite and supportive to "you", questions (on my time and expense) never stops. It seems you never looked from the giving side?

 

54 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

the Kobol forum. Linked from the Kobol website. For the purpose of customer support.


This will make all problems go away?

 

54 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

everything to do with ensuring people know what to expect - and what they can expect is an absolute inability to request support with something that's clearly broken without being attacked by you. It's literally my job to warn people about things like that.

 

So you do support non-profit open source project. Thank you!

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1 minute ago, Igor said:

Being extremely supportive or being extremely hostile changes nothing in term of support from end users side.

 

So you choose to attack and abuse... because it'll attract developers? Are you sure about that logic? I can tell you now, I'll certainly not be getting involved in the project's development. Nor will I recommend anyone else to do so.

2 minutes ago, Igor said:

If I am polite and supportive to "you", questions (on my time and expense) never stops. It seems you never looked from the giving side?

 

First, politeness takes no more time than being abusive. Second, I literally want none of your time. I did not call you into this thread. I did not send you a private message. I did not send you an email, an instant messenger, find you on IRC... I posted a message to Kobol, on the Kobol sub-forum, which is maintained by Kobol for the support of Kobol customers. You went out of your way to visit the Kobol sub-forum, find my post, and berate me for something I haven't done.

 

Like I said, if you spent less time doing things like that and more time bug-fixing, maybe the bills would be lower and Armbian more usable.

4 minutes ago, Igor said:

So you do support non-profit open source project.

 

I very much do, yes. I've created open-source projects, documented open-source projects, maintained open-source projects, donated to open-source projects, and have used nothing but open-source software for two decades. Projects both bigger and smaller than Armbian. But you wouldn't know that, because you made an assumption in the thread you specifically sought out.

 

Please leave me alone. This is bordering on harassment now.

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18 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

I'll repeat for clarity, so others reading this thread don't misunderstand my meaning: this is going to keep happening. 

 

Nobody said it won't be happening. It is normal that it is happening. This is the way software development works. No other way. It is your problem that you want to use unfinished software. And its your rick that you use software that you don't support.

In case someone will be reading this - @Gareth Halfacreenever helped the project and is constantly complaining over the service quality and support he gets for free.

 

20 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

Future updates will continue to break the Helios64, and other devices, and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

You can always fork the project and maintain it on your own. All sources are out there - nobody is preventing you to sacrifice your time and money to prevent troubles to happen. You can do something positive for the humanity for a change. Is that so hard?

 

21 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

Armbian, as Igor says, simply doesn't have the resources to properly test its updates before release, much less actually respond to bug reports.


Better testing? Not a problem. Give me few million euros and testing procedures will be improved. Or just pay for the damage you create and we will take care for the rest. Since we already do, but your are just unable to see. 

 

25 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

You will not be able to rely

 

You are using free software free of charge and now you want a free support with rights to complain? :) LOL

 

25 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

and your data safe.


That is your problem. Always.

 

26 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

I'd advise looking into alternative software


I am advising you this for months now but you are still here with the same redneck hostile attitude toward non-profit open source project support that is giving you gold, while you are totally blind and can't see it.

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48 minutes ago, Igor said:

In case someone will be reading this - @Gareth Halfacreenever helped the project and is constantly complaining over the service quality and support he gets for free.

As I keep trying to explain, and you keep missing, bug reports and testing are a generally-accepted way to help an open-source project. The fact you don't realise that is why Armbian is a dead end for any kind of serious use.

 

48 minutes ago, Igor said:

Give me few million euros and testing procedures will be improved.

Well, that's certainly an upgrade on your usual demand for a €50 a month subscription.

 

48 minutes ago, Igor said:

redneck hostile attitude toward non-profit open source project support that is giving you gold

I leave it up to the reader to decide who is being hostile here - and as for "giving me gold," you are constantly breaking my NAS. That's the opposite of gold.

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1 hour ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

bug reports and testing are a generally-accepted way to help an open-source project.


Both exists in obviously greater extend then with other comparable FOSS projects. You can always report bugs, but prioritisation or escalation is not in your pay grade. You are also not in a position to determine what helps the project and what not. You simply don't have the expertise nor information to decide that. Do we agree on that? Whenever you will try to abuse those principles, you will get punched on the nose ... that is the problem here.

 

1 hour ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

for any kind of serious use.

 

When we will do it for serious, you will certainly not be able to talk with developers in any way and you will be paying a lot more then 50e per month. Until then, enjoy software that comes with no responsibility and obligations toward "customers".

 

1 hour ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

Well, that's certainly an upgrade on your usual demand for a €50 a month subscription.


That you will need to collect to improve testing which we loosers don't after you download sources and proceed on your own.

 

I don't need any of this. You do.

 

1 hour ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

you are constantly breaking my NAS.

 

Support relationship between your NAS and me or Armbian. We are not responsible if you have been fooled or your perception doesn't match our world.

We maintain it with best effort. 

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3 minutes ago, Igor said:

You can always report bugs, but prioritisation or escalation is not in your pay grade.

I have never asked for either. I did report, politely, a bug with an installation tool, which was not - and still is not - set up to handle updating the bootloader on the eMMC from a SATA install, and you jumped down my throat. Remember? Because I do.

 

4 minutes ago, Igor said:

You are also not in a position to determine what helps the project and what not. You simply don't have the expertise nor information to decide that.

Incorrect. As I've told you before, I've been involved with FOSS and open hardware for decades now and have worked on projects both bigger and smaller than Armbian. I have plenty of expertise on the topic, and I am telling you now that accurate bug reports help a project - and that you are doing nothing to encourage said reports, and are in fact actively discouraging them.

 

5 minutes ago, Igor said:

Whenever you will try to abuse those principles, you will get punched on the nose ...

This, from the man who accuses me of hostility? Remarkable.

 

7 minutes ago, Igor said:

When we will do it for serious, you will certainly not be able to talk with developers in any way and you will be paying a lot more then 50e per month.

Funny. I use Ubuntu on my other devices, and I don't think you could accuse Canonical of not being "serious" about it - yet I can communicate directly with the developers and am thanked, rather than attacked, for my bug reports.

 

8 minutes ago, Igor said:

I don't need any of this. You do.

Wrong. Armbian is your project, and you seem intent in running it into the ground.

 

8 minutes ago, Igor said:

There is no relationship whatsoever between your NAS and me or Armbian.

Your website says different, Igor.

 

image.png.0fec7fde3e25affc06a7becf6875bbe1.png

 

"SUPPORTED". "High level of software maturity". Neither of those claims are true, from what you're saying. Perhaps your next priority, though far be it from me to assign such, should be correcting your website?

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1 minute ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

I did report, politely

 

10 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

This, from the man who accuses me of hostility? Remarkable.

 

... and because there was not prompt response, you started to build pressure and bump topics. You bring violence to this place.

 

4 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

I've been involved with FOSS and open hardware for decades

 

And you have learned so little?

 

18 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

I use Ubuntu on my other devices


Why don't you use it on this device and we stop this conversation?

 

20 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

I use Ubuntu on my other devices, and I don't think you could accuse Canonical of not being "serious" about it - yet I can communicate directly with the developers and am thanked, rather than attacked, for my bug reports.


You were warned for your behaviour. Canonical is a 1000 person corporation? Almost like we ;)

 

22 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

Your website says different, Igor.


I assume you will RTFM before you will be wasting my time
https://docs.armbian.com/#what-is-supported

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1 minute ago, Igor said:

... and because there was not prompt response, you started to build pressure and bump topics. You bring violence to this place.

 

That is an outright lie, and you know it.

 

Here is the thread in question. I asked a simple question. The next day, a Kobol team member - not Armbian - posted a response. I tried what was suggested, and replied. The day after, the same Kobol team member posted another suggestion.

 

Then, without any further prompting or posts on my part, you jumped in with an aggressive reply - moved by your own forum moderators to here and renamed "random rant" because it was so unwarranted and off-topic - telling me you "don't have time to care what 'customers' need" and that if I wanted the installer to work as expected I was "welcome to organise and finance its refactoring, development, research."

 

Until that point, I had not responded unless in reply. I had waited patiently. I was polite. At no point at all prior to your interjection did I "build pressure" or "bump topics."

 

If you're resorting to literally lying about my conduct on the forum, I think it's clear you know you're in the wrong here.

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8 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

I think it's clear you know you're in the wrong here.


I admit I am wrong sometimes. Will that make any difference in your attempt to move gilt on your problem to us, even on personal level. No, it won't. Because you know how open source project works better then anyone else and you are trying to force us to comply. To serve your personal interest - to keep your NAS operational. Legit, but keep the voice down. You are not the only one.

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10 minutes ago, Igor said:

I admit I am wrong sometimes.

I will assume this is an apology.

 

10 minutes ago, Igor said:

Because you know how open source project works better then anyone else and you are trying to force us to do the same.

I am not forcing you to do anything. I would like you to stop responding to innocent bug reports in an incredibly aggressive manner. That would be nice.

 

I also don't know how open source projects work better than anyone else, and have never claimed to. You were the one assuming that, somehow, in the year 2021, putting Armbian on my NAS was literally the very first time I'd ever encountered FOSS - a very, very incorrect assumption. You maintained that assumption even after I corrected you, on more than on occasion, because it allowed you to believe I have no idea what I'm talking about and thus dismiss my very valid concerns out-of-hand.

10 minutes ago, Igor said:

To serve your personal interest - to keep your NAS operational.

I'll make no bones about it: that's literally the only reason I'm here. That, and to help others do the same. It would have been nice if we could have worked together - me in the self-interest of having my NAS not die every time I apt update, and you in the self-interest of not having a bunch of people complaining to you that their NAS dies every time they apt update - but it's clear that's not going to happen.

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1 hour ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

It would have been nice if we could have worked together


I never lost hope but I have to defend our time and attention from being (ab)used too much. Time that is wasted in exchange for nothing is toxic. If there is not even emotional revenue, there is no point in solving bugs. They are endless flow ... If nobody say thanks, people become apathetic, loose interest, go away ... who you will be talking to then? We already lost Kobol guys, which users were eating them alive and I could not help them enough - this is how I saw this support forum. This is not something you can get around any corner ... which I am sure you realised by now.

 

We create value - with bugs and without - and if you want more of that value, perhaps support or similar expensive services, we expect something from you. Most precious is your help and we have some ideas where help is valuable. Or cash if you can't. Getting us to work on your problem when you want is not helping us ... it is killing us, its a burden and a direct expense. You need to understand our reality to be able to start.

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Just now, Igor said:

I never lost hope but I have to defend our time and attention from being (ab)used too much.

You cannot defend against abuse by being abusive - especially towards those who are not being abusive themselves.

 

1 minute ago, Igor said:

Time that is wasted in exchange for nothing is toxic.

And yet - and I made this point the last time we had this discussion, but I'd really really appreciate it if you'd read and understand it this time - you've spent an entire morning arguing with me over something you now admit I'd never done in the first place. Time that could have been productively spent on something - anything - else, whether that's fixing bugs or just going outside and enjoying the sunshine.

 

2 minutes ago, Igor said:

Getting us to work on your problem when you want is not helping us ... it is killing us, its a burden and a direct expense.

You're falling back into your old patterns here, Igor. Show me where I have ever demanded that you work on my problems. You can't, because I never have. I have reported problems, and I have even asked the community for advice on how to resolve said problems. I have never, ever approached you or any member of the Armbian development team for assistance, much less made demands. In fact, I literally asked you to leave me alone the last time you decided to attack me.

 

I had hoped your begrudging apology was the beginning of change. Apparently, fruitlessly.

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1 hour ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

I had hoped your begrudging apology was the beginning of change


Apology goes for slight misinterpretation of your behaviour. The rest remain unchanged. Resources hasn't changed, your input in "working together" remains negative - what exactly have you done for us so far? - and I have no reasons whatsoever to trust you. Beside you want something what you have to wait in a long long line anyway. Which is the first "cruel" fact you have to accept and keep complains for yourself.
 

2 hours ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

I'll make no bones about it: that's literally the only reason I'm here.

 

Predatory behaviour is also very unwanted behaviour in this community. If you came just to solve your problem, we really don't need you around. Finding symptoms is dirt cheap.

 

1 hour ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

i have even asked the community for advice on how to resolve said problems

 

Support is "just" about answering valuable questions, which can save you tons of time. And money. This is forum. If you will treat it as a support for your needs, you might be again having troubles with me.

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2 minutes ago, Igor said:

what exactly have you done for us so far?

Aside from actively attempt to help other Helios64 users, thus actively reducing your support workload without any return? Not much, I guess. I tried to get you to see that your attitude will be the death of the project, but I think I'm going to have to give up on that.

3 minutes ago, Igor said:

Finding symptoms is dirt cheap.

Then why didn't you spot the problem before you released the update? Why didn't you spot that the previous update broke the fans? Why didn't you spot that the update prior to that broke the Ethernet? Why didn't you spot that the update prior to *that* corrupted boot files?

 

Those are all issues that you would never have known existed without reports from the community. The only reason you think "finding symptoms is dirt cheap" is because you farm your testing off on the community. Then if anyone has the temerity to actually report something like, I dunno, that you accidentally removed the 2.5Gb Ethernet driver from the build and didn't notice, you attack them and demand payment.

 

And you don't see this as a problem.

6 minutes ago, Igor said:

This is forum. If you will treat it as a support for your needs, you might be again having troubles with me.

This is a forum, yes. Remind me, does the forum have rules against harassment? Against personal attacks? Against calling people things like, oh, I don't know, "redneck"?

 

Communities are fostered from the inside out. You need to decide what kind of community you want to foster.

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2 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

Then why didn't you spot the problem before you released the update?

 

Million euro questions are summed here https://docs.armbian.com/User-Guide_FAQ/

 

4 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

Aside from actively attempt to help other Helios64 users,


What you could be responsible is the fall of official Helios64 support.

 

6 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

Remind me, does the forum have rules against harassment? Against personal attacks? Against calling people things like, oh, I don't know, "redneck"?

 

I feel the same. Who I have to cry to now? I can ban you if that will help, but you can also find a logout button on your own.

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Just now, Igor said:

Million euro questions are summed here

No, they're not. You just told me that finding symptoms is dirt cheap, so why aren't you doing it? If it's so cheap, it will have absolutely zero impact on the project's running costs.

 

1 minute ago, Igor said:

What you could be responsible is the fall of official Helios64 support.

Likewise. Perhaps if people had felt they could ask questions on this, the Helios64 forum, without the risk you would attack them and demand money with menaces, the Kobol team wouldn't have abandoned ship. But, instead, you decide to go on the attack - even when the Kobol team was having a perfectly pleasant conversation with a user.

 

3 minutes ago, Igor said:

I feel the same.

Show me where I have personally attacked you. Show me where I have called you names. Show me where I have actively lied about your conduct.

 

You can't, because I haven't. You are the only one behaving that way.

4 minutes ago, Igor said:

I can ban you if that will help

You could, yes. This is your project. You are in ultimate control. But banning me because of your own behaviour would prove once and for all that you are incapable of reflecting on your actions, of change. It would be the ultimate admission that you are in the wrong, and that you have zero defence for your actions.

 

Or you could reflect. You could modify your attitude. You could work with community members, instead of against them. Imagine how much could have been achieved if your response to my original post had been something along the lines of "hey, thanks for the report, that's clearly broken, unfortunately we don't have the resources to look at it yet, but here's the source code and we'd really appreciate any input you could offer."

 

There are always two paths to take. Maybe try the road less travelled.

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29 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

so why aren't you doing it?

 

Why don't you do that? Not just for your egoistic need.

 

29 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

You just told me that finding symptoms is dirt cheap, so why aren't you doing it? If it's so cheap, it will have absolutely zero impact on the project's running costs.

 

Everyone can figure out - system doesn't boot, screen is black, network doesn't work anymore ... check support contract, we owe you nothing, you don't accept to cover the lost of time, so not sure why you are bringing this up again. Hire someone and fix the problem.

 

29 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

But, instead, you decide to go on the attack

 

Reminding people that pushes too much about reality they ignore? My only mistake is that I figured out what was going on too late.

 

29 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

was having a perfectly pleasant conversation with a user.


Well, they have to. Even their user / customer is a jerk. If our users is a jerk ... there are sources.

 

29 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

Show me where I have personally attacked you. Show me where I have called you names.

 

I talk with you because I suspect you are a reasonable man who could be able to understand why I have pushed on you. I call names to your behaviour, not to the person. 

 

29 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

You can't, because I haven't.

 

Its your behaviour and attitude that is troublesome and worrying. Not the language.

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7 minutes ago, Igor said:

Why don't you do that?

I literally have done that. You didn't like it, remember? I found a bug, I posted about the bug in the forum without ever directly contacting any Armbian representatives... and you attacked me for it.

 

Make your mind up, Igor. Do you want me to report bugs, or don't you?

7 minutes ago, Igor said:

Everyone can figure out - system doesn't boot, screen is black, network doesn't work anymore ... check support contract, we owe you nothing, you don't accept to cover the lost of time, so not sure why you are bringing this up again.

I'm not - you are. You tell me that finding bugs is far too costly for the Armbian project in one breath, then tell me that the community finding bugs is "dirt cheap" on the other. You can't have it both ways. Especially if you attack those who actually report bugs. For free.

 

7 minutes ago, Igor said:

Even their user / customer is a jerk.

I see we're back to name-calling. Remind me of the forum rules on that again?

 

7 minutes ago, Igor said:

I call names to your behaviour, not to the person. 

You called me a redneck. You called me a jerk. You've called me all this and more. If I were to put a name to your behaviour, it would be "bully."

 

7 minutes ago, Igor said:

Its your behaviour and attitude that is troublesome and worrying.

Really? Because...

 

37 minutes ago, RockBian said:

@Gareth Halfacree I admire your patience and politeness.

...others would disagree.

 

Are you willing to look in the mirror and examine your actions, Igor, or are we done here?

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2 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

I literally have done that.


Nope. You did it only for your own personal gain. Not several hundreds other variants. What we do.

 

3 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

Do you want me to report bugs, or don't you?


Actually not and you are one of the few persons that have troubles understanding that. 

 

https://github.com/armbian/build#support

Support contract is pretty clear and doesn't provide much misinterpretation:

  • Have you found a bug in the build tools?
    Try to recreate it with a clean build tools clone. Then search for existing and closed issues. If you don't find it there, open a new issue.
  • Do you have troubles elsewhere? 
    Armbian is free software and provides best effort help through community forums. If you can't find answer there and/or with help of general project search engine and documentation, consider hiring an expert.

Those are the conditions we have since ever and I can only expect that you accept them. Unconditionally for start. Our work in public interest has limits https://docs.armbian.com/Release_Changelog/ If something is bothering you, you can change at any time - like you can maintain a bug tracker and accept, track and prioritise bugs which you want to send to us (its a full time job). Then you just need to find people that will be happy to spend their days fixing for you. I am full for next year, so I will not join.

 

25 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

I see we're back to name-calling.


That was certainly not addressed to you. Everyone can see it.

 

26 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

Remind me of the forum rules on that again?


First mistake on your side and we can ban you, ok?

 

27 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

If I were to put a name to your behaviour, it would be "bully."


Yes, I am pressing on you. Like you do to us. And like you did to Kobol. Ain't nice?

 

27 minutes ago, Gareth Halfacree said:

Are you willing to look in the mirror and examine your actions, Igor, or are we done here?


I am done long time ago, but its a pleasure chatting with you.

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