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chwe

Improve 'Support over Forum' situation

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Only where I have some ideas or something to add:

* No defined censorship policy


So far we were removing only double postings, user requested removal of already find info in another post, etc.

 

* Tutorials hard to find


Let's tag them all (the rest) and unpin? https://forum.armbian.com/index.php?/search/&tags=tutorial

 

* Need differentiation for type of development threads

What do you mean by that?
 

* Home for reviews unclear


This is not yet defined. Solved simple with tagging and provide a link in one of few pinned posts.

 

* Homes needed for off-topic / tertiary projects

Chit-chat part when most of topics are moved elsewhere?
 

* Need a way to minimize repeated questions and unproductive newbie questions

Well, that's the main point of this rework. Declutter and expose what is important to read first.

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55 minutes ago, chwe said:

Could, signing posts with -Mod or so help to distinguish between something is posted with the power of a moderator and otherwise its just me (the moderator) act as a normal user of this board. 

For example: Someone posts his question in an other thread and it seems that his differs realy from the initial question. I would forke out his question, left a post in the original thread like: Forked out 'random question from random user' cause differs a lot from the initial one. -mod (with the link where he can find his question now).

 

I can see where there's situations where a communication might need some formality.   To me that a pinned post or a locked post probably achieves that.    Coming from the spirit of @tkaisers concerns about censorship, and avoid policing presence... I would be adverse to encouraging people to qualify their posts as coming from a moderator.   

 

Moderation vs. Mediation ( at least my version of it )

 

The terminology of Moderator is kind of an unfortunate standard.   I really wish forum culture had "administrators" and "mediators."   We need Administrators/Moderators to  support the mechanics of the forum...  Help with maintaining hierarchy, fix stupid, etc--- but that authority during a problematic topic is where Mediation is needed not Moderation.

 

The spirit of a mediator is a neutral party that is there keep opposing parties moving, and not because of authority, but because of reputation.   Peacekeepers don't need badges.

 

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11 minutes ago, lanefu said:

Administrators/Moderators to  support the mechanics of the forum...

I don't thought that a moderator is similar to a mediator. For me, a moderator is something like a 'green keeper'. He acts in the background, so that others can have fun. But to take my favourite example: When there was a coment on both threads that his question was forked out, maybe this:

Quote

Funny guy !

Since he was the OP, he still had the right to change the thread title from "dwmac-sun8i" to "problems-with-orange-pc" within minutes after I said that he hijacked the thread ...

 

EDIT : oouups ! I think it is one of the moderators that decide to split the thread ...

 

didn't happen and the hole thread would not end in a 'community against user' situation. Don't  get me wrong, I don't think that martinayotte's post is responsible for the mess in this thread. 

IMHO there was to much stress to get his project running combined with a ' I'm sure it must be a software issue' attitude. And maybe 'to much people want to help' so mixed everything up (I'm also taking responsibility, being one of the 'mixers').

 

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@pfeerick

 

What about joining those two into one general notice /

https://forum.armbian.com/index.php?/topic/4571-power-supply-issues/

https://forum.armbian.com/index.php?/topic/4570-sd-card-issues/

announcement, which are present on the top of each topic and can be defined per groups and per forums. It's kind of repeating this over and over again. Probably more effective than pinned post?

 

Example:

https://forum.armbian.com/index.php?/topic/4465-nanopi-neo-internal-usb-seems-disabled/

Untitled-1.jpg

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@Igor I like! ;) Make it into 'have you tried this yet - using good power, using good power, engaging brain' and 'if you haven't already read them, here are the docs' post, and basically sticky it? 

 

And how would that tutorials thingy work? Sort of another section of of the site, but for tutorials?

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Just now, pfeerick said:

Make it into 'have you tried this yet - using good power, using good power, engaging brain' and 'if you haven't already read them, here are the docs' post, and basically sticky it? 


Keep it minimalist and keep in mind that wall of text is never / rarely read, especially not by those which we are addressing :angry::)

 

2 minutes ago, pfeerick said:

And how would that tutorials thingy work? Sort of another section of of the site, but for tutorials?


Not very much familiar, have to study more, but we need more than only my point of view ... since its a forum plugin and very integrated, it should be simple to adopt and migrate. I notice it's one click job for making existing tutorials into this subsystem. Moderators will get another option: "Make this post tutorial".

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2 minutes ago, Igor said:

Keep it minimalist and keep in mind that wall of text is never / rarely read, especially not by those which we are addressing :angry::)

 

I can relate to that... give me a wall of text and I go to sleep... or go looking for a better guide. MORE PICTURES! ;) I need to clean up the other thread and use links instead of those weird embedded forum link things... that makes a relatively short post look download scary.

Edited by pfeerick
added a bit more to the thought

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Would it be an option to introduce mandatory tags for the subjects?  I am thinking of creating a tag for each SBC which is allowed in the forum section, and possibly a "General" tag for issues with all SBCs...  This would maybe force the topic starter to think about the location of the post; if the tag is not available you are in the wrong section. On top of that it would make it a lot easier to filter / search the forum...

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3 minutes ago, pzw said:

Would it be an option to introduce mandatory tags for the subjects?  I am thinking of creating a tag for each SBC which is allowed in the forum section, and possibly a "General" tag for issues with all SBCs...  This would maybe force the topic starter to think about the location of the post; if the tag is not available you are in the wrong section. On top of that it would make it a lot easier to filter / search the forum...

IMO this would make the forum look like a christmas tree with different colored tags and still won't stop people from posting things not really related to Armbian or in wrong forum sections.

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Sounds nice in principle, but I'm with Zador... Christmas tree clutter, and just makes things more confusing to newcomers, who are the ones who are the ones most likely to post stuff in the wrong place. Enough moderators who pay attention (duly slapped by Igor and Thomas) make this a relative non-issue. But please keep the suggestions coming!

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I used to be a moderator on a big, >30000 members of which about 1500 active, satellite reception related forum in the Netherlands and we found out back then that it did work. Another modification we made was showing a reminder above the text box where the new topic was started... 

If the tag is just the SBC, and all SBC tags have the same color, the christmas tree might not be so bad...

 

Another suggestion; Would it be possible to create per forum a FAQ sticky post, where a lot of the current stickies are mentioned in...? So reduce the number of sticky posts..

 

On the support side it might be good to only support the last 2/3 releases of Armbian, and if somebody asks anything about an older release then they just get the advice to update to be able to get support...

 

Just a few random thoughts..

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On 23.6.2017 at 9:01 PM, tkaiser said:

If anyone wants to spend a little bit of time on collecting maybe 10 'SD card was the issue' threads ...

 

(this is another one where confirmation is yet missing -- 'Authentication token manipulation error' is read-only rootfs most probably related to SD card crappiness)

 

Now we're already at this level: 

And since I really don't waste my time any more with all this insanely stupid support BS someone else might step in (useless anyway, we need a collection of 'SD card was the issue' threads since some people simply don't accept answers that the problem might be located on their side). What's happening at the technical level is that the forced root passwd change will trigger the 'Authentication token manipulation error' after entering 1234 when rootfs is read-only at this time. Mostly people who aren't able to follow instructions (use Etcher!) are affected but since Armbian still fails so horribly guiding users it will be the same support shit show over and over again.

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Hmm... IMO https://forum.armbian.com/index.php?/topic/4553-authentication-token-manipulation-error-on-orange-pi-zero/&do=findComment&comment=34483 is worst possible reaction but anyway, that's just me thinking this way.

 

People use WinDiskImage32 for a reason since still almost all tutorials out there recommend this tool. We don't recommend Etcher in a way that it's obvious (and fail at the same time to understand this), new users being confrontated with a software error called 'Authentication token manipulation error' don't understand they're suffering from both a shitty SD card and a burning tool that allows them to write garbage (since not doing any verify).

 

It's a simple decision: Do we want to deal with the same stupid support situations over and over again or not (that means looking at this project from the outside and understanding that 'average users' are NOT nerds). I asked the guy via PM to try out Etcher and report back (to get just another 'SD card was the issue and Etcher saved my life me some hours' success story we could collect) but hey...

 

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1 hour ago, tkaiser said:

but since Armbian still fails so horribly guiding users it will be the same support shit show over and over again.


Forum and other guiding changes will start showing results in a month or more. I hope they will go into the direction we want. We are in discussing, going to implementation stage and our mind has to adjust to changes we set. If we set new rules, we will need time to adopt. For example - we won't try to convince people that they are wrong, but simply left them in their belief.
 

Quote

is worst possible reaction but anyway, that's just me thinking this way.


If you need to step into the mud you get dirty. Perhaps we should have more radical policy: if error is not possible to reproduce, case is closed (thread locked) on the spot.

 

Quote

It's a simple decision: Do we want to deal with the same stupid support situations over and over again or not (that means looking at this project from the outside and understanding that 'average users' are NOT nerds). I asked the guy via PM to try out Etcher and report back (to get just another 'SD card was the issue and Etcher saved my life me some hours' success story we could collect) but hey...


No we don't and you already know what the problem is. Why bother?

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6 minutes ago, tkaiser said:

It's a simple decision: Do we want to deal with the same stupid support situations over and over again or not (that means looking at this project from the outside and understanding that 'average users' are NOT nerds). I asked the guy via PM to try out Etcher and report back (to get just another 'SD card was the issue and Etcher saved my life me some hours' success story we could collect) but hey...

 

Unfortunately "Authentication token manipulation error" may also mean that users don't understand or don't even try to understand the password change prompt that requires entering the old password first.

For the filesystem errors, it may be possible to prevent the system on a read-only SD to boot up to the login prompt, but I'm not sure how useful it can be.

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19 minutes ago, zador.blood.stained said:

Unfortunately "Authentication token manipulation error" may also mean that users don't understand or don't even try to understand the password change prompt that requires entering the old password first.

I read through his blog and he was talking about read-only symptoms already. It also doesn't really matter whether the problem is caused by a broken SD card, a broken card reader corrupting data while writing or maybe even a corrupted download. It's just about getting people to follow our recommendations that exist for a reason without questioning this over and over again (we know why Etcher is recommended but we are obviously not able to communicate this, that's why I was talking about the collection of simple threads where 'SD card was the issue' is understandable so people are able to accept downloading Etcher 'bloatware' instead of using 'slim' WinDiskimager).

 

Given how the thread went I don't believe he'll accept that using Etcher might a good idea. More probably on his blog an article about arrogant Armbian jerks will appear (me being called like that as 'tkaiser' is no problem, at least for me. But I fear if more such blog posts appear on the net, there's a problem. That's why I still think this forum should not be overmoderated but since I chose to not be part of moderator team any more all I can do now is shutting up)

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4 minutes ago, tkaiser said:

Given how the thread went I don't believe he'll accept that using Etcher might a good idea.


Bad for him.

 

Informing part of the issue is a waste of resources, while convincing is mega wasting. I am simply not playing that game. For feeling bad at the end, since in most cases you will fail. For sure!

 

BTW: The other day I had similar small issue on the forum, but person started to follow up on personal message. I need to told him three times, that he should post questions in forum.

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31 minutes ago, zador.blood.stained said:

it may be possible to prevent the system on a read-only SD to boot up to the login prompt, but I'm not sure how useful it can be.

 

IMO that's a great idea, same with executing cpuburn-a7 or cpuburn-a53 as part of firstrun crashing/freezing underpowered boards so they will never boot Armbian unless basic problems are fixed first (I proposed that already in the past IIRC). Many users are reluctant to discussions/reasons but usually accept reality... after some time. They fail to boot their board with Armbian, call Armbian a pile of crap, try other OS images, experience all the random issues related to SD cards or underpowering (discussing those in vendor forums but not here) and finally arrive at the pinned post 'Why does my board doesn't boot with Armbian at all while it's just instable with other distros?'

 

Many people are reluctant to accept answers/suggestions pointing to them being part of the problem (even if it's just their SD card, card reader or phone charger) while they have not the slightest problem accepting the same fact if they read of other people going through this process. That's why I still think that such a collection of 'success stories' wrt SD cards or powering problems is inevitable. It gets one psychological issue out of the way (people feeling offended since believing they are told doing something wrong)

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And maybe this world is NOT perfect, but as long as we try to do better, we get better.

Rom wasn't built on a day.

 

This thread is a little bit waste of time (because talking about it makes no changes), beside lanefu's points.

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Quick note: remove ASUS Tinker Board from "Other" board subtitle.  ;-), add "ASUS Tinker Board" to Rockchip in place of "Tinkerboard"

 

@Tido I think any reasonable discourse is worthwhile, if not immediately productive.  A lot can be learned from the ideas of others, even if only about the people themselves.

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Forum does look "cleaner"..

There will always be those who join and post without searching / reading, people...in general... are a lazy bunch, and those with a little tech knowledge, think ….

Hey we are “special” and any tech issue we are having can not be anything WE are doing / not doing wrong, so it must be the software / hardware..

Right, I mean come on I got X number of years this so I must be right.

 

You must FORCE us provide the info. needed to help us, get us to READ the docs and How to’s.

 

The more effort you make us put into solving our own problems... the more we learn.

 

Because I used cheap SD cards for weeks without issue, once a issue came up, I dismissed the SD as the possible problem because it had never been an issue before,

and I JUST KNEW it could not be...well you know what happened….wasted hours of time...time I do not have much of…

 

By not listening to the folks here.. who know what’s what’s….I broke one of my basic rules….

 

“You must learn from other people’s mistakes. You can’t possibly live long enough to make them all yourself.”

Sam Levenson

 

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6 hours ago, TonyMac32 said:

A lot can be learned from the ideas of others

Yes, but I am more the 'sprint' type (taking it from agile development) - than talking over and over about the same. I don't know but I guess TK has till now not created a template for new devices on which everybody then can build of - this is just an example nothing against TK.

 ... this is what I meant by waste of time. I am more kind of a doer. Things then improve on the way in the community.

 

Forum structure has been changed.

 


17 hours ago, pzw said:

mandatory tags for the subjects

By the way,  "tags for the subjects"  do it unvisible. But if you have it on hand you might get good use in the future. It is always good to start with just a few - to get a feeling.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Tido said:

Thank you for confirming! In other words: you totally missed what's that all about. I was talking about current situation (everyone with commit rights to Armbian repo decides on his own when to start supporting a new board) and I proposed a change to that. A developer (not forum moderator) wanting to add support for a new board should requires him to 

  • outline the reasons why he wants to support a new board and which level of support he thinks the device deserves
  • collects available resources so other devs save some time so they don't have to search the net first
  • weighs pros/cons from both a developer and 'average Armbian user' perspective

And the main reason to start with something like that is not to ease board bring up BUT EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE! Establish a process/protocol a dev has to follow that requires at least some thoughts why it's worth the efforts especially if we should decide that the board deserves full support status later. And you're asking for templates! You can't substitute the results of using your brain with templates (same with this boilerplate BS you're constantly recommending to me). It's all about understanding/consensus and nothing can be handled with templates (that's why I titled the ROCK64 thread with 'Example' since it could look like this if another dev wants to propose adding a new board but of course it can also look like this depending on the thoughts and what the purpose is)

 

You calling yourself the agile sprint type (the 'doer') most probably won't notice that running in the wrong direction isn't really smart (same with you having the ability to edit posts -- a person who doesn't even get why there is something written should really never ever edit stuff. Same with your personal reaction to this -- again a proof that you've not the slightest idea what's going on!)

 

For the others: We could have another 'SD card was the issue' result: https://organicmonkeymotion.wordpress.com/2017/06/25/setup-for-house-server/

 

And zero responses to 'preventing boards to boot when rootfs is read-only and executing cpuburn-a7 or cpuburn-a53 as part of firstrun crashing/freezing underpowered boards' reminds me why I consider this babbling here a waste of time.

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