Gareth Halfacree

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Posts posted by Gareth Halfacree

  1. Just now, Igor said:

    First mistake on your side and we can ban you, ok?

    That's what I thought, Thank you, Igor, for finally revealing your true colours for all to see.

     

    Good luck with the future of your project.

  2. 7 minutes ago, Igor said:

    Why don't you do that?

    I literally have done that. You didn't like it, remember? I found a bug, I posted about the bug in the forum without ever directly contacting any Armbian representatives... and you attacked me for it.

     

    Make your mind up, Igor. Do you want me to report bugs, or don't you?

    7 minutes ago, Igor said:

    Everyone can figure out - system doesn't boot, screen is black, network doesn't work anymore ... check support contract, we owe you nothing, you don't accept to cover the lost of time, so not sure why you are bringing this up again.

    I'm not - you are. You tell me that finding bugs is far too costly for the Armbian project in one breath, then tell me that the community finding bugs is "dirt cheap" on the other. You can't have it both ways. Especially if you attack those who actually report bugs. For free.

     

    7 minutes ago, Igor said:

    Even their user / customer is a jerk.

    I see we're back to name-calling. Remind me of the forum rules on that again?

     

    7 minutes ago, Igor said:

    I call names to your behaviour, not to the person. 

    You called me a redneck. You called me a jerk. You've called me all this and more. If I were to put a name to your behaviour, it would be "bully."

     

    7 minutes ago, Igor said:

    Its your behaviour and attitude that is troublesome and worrying.

    Really? Because...

     

    37 minutes ago, RockBian said:

    @Gareth Halfacree I admire your patience and politeness.

    ...others would disagree.

     

    Are you willing to look in the mirror and examine your actions, Igor, or are we done here?

  3. Just now, Igor said:

    Million euro questions are summed here

    No, they're not. You just told me that finding symptoms is dirt cheap, so why aren't you doing it? If it's so cheap, it will have absolutely zero impact on the project's running costs.

     

    1 minute ago, Igor said:

    What you could be responsible is the fall of official Helios64 support.

    Likewise. Perhaps if people had felt they could ask questions on this, the Helios64 forum, without the risk you would attack them and demand money with menaces, the Kobol team wouldn't have abandoned ship. But, instead, you decide to go on the attack - even when the Kobol team was having a perfectly pleasant conversation with a user.

     

    3 minutes ago, Igor said:

    I feel the same.

    Show me where I have personally attacked you. Show me where I have called you names. Show me where I have actively lied about your conduct.

     

    You can't, because I haven't. You are the only one behaving that way.

    4 minutes ago, Igor said:

    I can ban you if that will help

    You could, yes. This is your project. You are in ultimate control. But banning me because of your own behaviour would prove once and for all that you are incapable of reflecting on your actions, of change. It would be the ultimate admission that you are in the wrong, and that you have zero defence for your actions.

     

    Or you could reflect. You could modify your attitude. You could work with community members, instead of against them. Imagine how much could have been achieved if your response to my original post had been something along the lines of "hey, thanks for the report, that's clearly broken, unfortunately we don't have the resources to look at it yet, but here's the source code and we'd really appreciate any input you could offer."

     

    There are always two paths to take. Maybe try the road less travelled.

  4. 2 minutes ago, Igor said:

    what exactly have you done for us so far?

    Aside from actively attempt to help other Helios64 users, thus actively reducing your support workload without any return? Not much, I guess. I tried to get you to see that your attitude will be the death of the project, but I think I'm going to have to give up on that.

    3 minutes ago, Igor said:

    Finding symptoms is dirt cheap.

    Then why didn't you spot the problem before you released the update? Why didn't you spot that the previous update broke the fans? Why didn't you spot that the update prior to that broke the Ethernet? Why didn't you spot that the update prior to *that* corrupted boot files?

     

    Those are all issues that you would never have known existed without reports from the community. The only reason you think "finding symptoms is dirt cheap" is because you farm your testing off on the community. Then if anyone has the temerity to actually report something like, I dunno, that you accidentally removed the 2.5Gb Ethernet driver from the build and didn't notice, you attack them and demand payment.

     

    And you don't see this as a problem.

    6 minutes ago, Igor said:

    This is forum. If you will treat it as a support for your needs, you might be again having troubles with me.

    This is a forum, yes. Remind me, does the forum have rules against harassment? Against personal attacks? Against calling people things like, oh, I don't know, "redneck"?

     

    Communities are fostered from the inside out. You need to decide what kind of community you want to foster.

  5. Just now, Igor said:

    I never lost hope but I have to defend our time and attention from being (ab)used too much.

    You cannot defend against abuse by being abusive - especially towards those who are not being abusive themselves.

     

    1 minute ago, Igor said:

    Time that is wasted in exchange for nothing is toxic.

    And yet - and I made this point the last time we had this discussion, but I'd really really appreciate it if you'd read and understand it this time - you've spent an entire morning arguing with me over something you now admit I'd never done in the first place. Time that could have been productively spent on something - anything - else, whether that's fixing bugs or just going outside and enjoying the sunshine.

     

    2 minutes ago, Igor said:

    Getting us to work on your problem when you want is not helping us ... it is killing us, its a burden and a direct expense.

    You're falling back into your old patterns here, Igor. Show me where I have ever demanded that you work on my problems. You can't, because I never have. I have reported problems, and I have even asked the community for advice on how to resolve said problems. I have never, ever approached you or any member of the Armbian development team for assistance, much less made demands. In fact, I literally asked you to leave me alone the last time you decided to attack me.

     

    I had hoped your begrudging apology was the beginning of change. Apparently, fruitlessly.

  6. 10 minutes ago, Igor said:

    I admit I am wrong sometimes.

    I will assume this is an apology.

     

    10 minutes ago, Igor said:

    Because you know how open source project works better then anyone else and you are trying to force us to do the same.

    I am not forcing you to do anything. I would like you to stop responding to innocent bug reports in an incredibly aggressive manner. That would be nice.

     

    I also don't know how open source projects work better than anyone else, and have never claimed to. You were the one assuming that, somehow, in the year 2021, putting Armbian on my NAS was literally the very first time I'd ever encountered FOSS - a very, very incorrect assumption. You maintained that assumption even after I corrected you, on more than on occasion, because it allowed you to believe I have no idea what I'm talking about and thus dismiss my very valid concerns out-of-hand.

    10 minutes ago, Igor said:

    To serve your personal interest - to keep your NAS operational.

    I'll make no bones about it: that's literally the only reason I'm here. That, and to help others do the same. It would have been nice if we could have worked together - me in the self-interest of having my NAS not die every time I apt update, and you in the self-interest of not having a bunch of people complaining to you that their NAS dies every time they apt update - but it's clear that's not going to happen.

  7. 1 minute ago, Igor said:

    ... and because there was not prompt response, you started to build pressure and bump topics. You bring violence to this place.

     

    That is an outright lie, and you know it.

     

    Here is the thread in question. I asked a simple question. The next day, a Kobol team member - not Armbian - posted a response. I tried what was suggested, and replied. The day after, the same Kobol team member posted another suggestion.

     

    Then, without any further prompting or posts on my part, you jumped in with an aggressive reply - moved by your own forum moderators to here and renamed "random rant" because it was so unwarranted and off-topic - telling me you "don't have time to care what 'customers' need" and that if I wanted the installer to work as expected I was "welcome to organise and finance its refactoring, development, research."

     

    Until that point, I had not responded unless in reply. I had waited patiently. I was polite. At no point at all prior to your interjection did I "build pressure" or "bump topics."

     

    If you're resorting to literally lying about my conduct on the forum, I think it's clear you know you're in the wrong here.

  8. 3 minutes ago, Igor said:

    You can always report bugs, but prioritisation or escalation is not in your pay grade.

    I have never asked for either. I did report, politely, a bug with an installation tool, which was not - and still is not - set up to handle updating the bootloader on the eMMC from a SATA install, and you jumped down my throat. Remember? Because I do.

     

    4 minutes ago, Igor said:

    You are also not in a position to determine what helps the project and what not. You simply don't have the expertise nor information to decide that.

    Incorrect. As I've told you before, I've been involved with FOSS and open hardware for decades now and have worked on projects both bigger and smaller than Armbian. I have plenty of expertise on the topic, and I am telling you now that accurate bug reports help a project - and that you are doing nothing to encourage said reports, and are in fact actively discouraging them.

     

    5 minutes ago, Igor said:

    Whenever you will try to abuse those principles, you will get punched on the nose ...

    This, from the man who accuses me of hostility? Remarkable.

     

    7 minutes ago, Igor said:

    When we will do it for serious, you will certainly not be able to talk with developers in any way and you will be paying a lot more then 50e per month.

    Funny. I use Ubuntu on my other devices, and I don't think you could accuse Canonical of not being "serious" about it - yet I can communicate directly with the developers and am thanked, rather than attacked, for my bug reports.

     

    8 minutes ago, Igor said:

    I don't need any of this. You do.

    Wrong. Armbian is your project, and you seem intent in running it into the ground.

     

    8 minutes ago, Igor said:

    There is no relationship whatsoever between your NAS and me or Armbian.

    Your website says different, Igor.

     

    image.png.0fec7fde3e25affc06a7becf6875bbe1.png

     

    "SUPPORTED". "High level of software maturity". Neither of those claims are true, from what you're saying. Perhaps your next priority, though far be it from me to assign such, should be correcting your website?

  9. 48 minutes ago, Igor said:

    In case someone will be reading this - @Gareth Halfacreenever helped the project and is constantly complaining over the service quality and support he gets for free.

    As I keep trying to explain, and you keep missing, bug reports and testing are a generally-accepted way to help an open-source project. The fact you don't realise that is why Armbian is a dead end for any kind of serious use.

     

    48 minutes ago, Igor said:

    Give me few million euros and testing procedures will be improved.

    Well, that's certainly an upgrade on your usual demand for a €50 a month subscription.

     

    48 minutes ago, Igor said:

    redneck hostile attitude toward non-profit open source project support that is giving you gold

    I leave it up to the reader to decide who is being hostile here - and as for "giving me gold," you are constantly breaking my NAS. That's the opposite of gold.

  10. 11 hours ago, Igor said:

    We have many known bugs, and no resources to deal with them.

    As I can see, which is why I am making sure to move away from Armbian - and I recommend anyone reading this to do the same. It's simply not a project you can rely upon for daily use. For messing around with as a hobbyist, sure, why not. But to actually rely upon? Impossible.

     

    Especially when the founder doesn't understand that bug reports - especially bug reports from beta/nightly users, which have been specifically requested right here in this thread - have value to the project. With an attitude like that, Armbian will never become anything more than a hobbyist's curiosity.

     

    I'll repeat for clarity, so others reading this thread don't misunderstand my meaning: this is going to keep happening. Future updates will continue to break the Helios64, and other devices, and there is nothing you can do about it. Armbian, as Igor says, simply doesn't have the resources to properly test its updates before release, much less actually respond to bug reports. You will not be able to rely on it to keep your Helios64 running and your data safe. If you're happy with that, by all means continue to use it; otherwise, I'd advise looking into alternative software and/or moving to a new NAS altogether.

  11. 3 hours ago, Heisath said:

    Something that's probably gonna keep happening if nobody is using the beta repository (nightly/edge) and reporting errors before they make it to the current version.

    Oh, I've tried reporting problems. Igor told me (and many, many others) that if I wasn't paying €50 a month to Armbian he wasn't interested, so I stopped.

  12. 49 minutes ago, Schroedingers Cat said:

    Any idea what's going on? Is the built-in storage dying?

    No, the storage is fine - Armbian 21.08.1 is yet another update that hoses something on the Helios64. Last time it was the fans, the time before that the 2.5Gb Ethernet port (twice), and this time it's the eMMC.

     

    You'll need to follow the instructions upthread to downgrade the kernel to get the eMMC working again. Then cross your fingers it gets fixed at some point in the future.

  13. 4 hours ago, gprovost said:

    The issue that might be related to SATA controller seems to only show up with BTRFS and ZFS while doing some scrubbing. Do you guys have a suggestion for a simple reproducible test starting from scratch (no data on HDD) ? Thanks for your help.

     

    I'd suggest getting one or more drives, setting them up in a btrfs mirror, dding a bunch of random onto them, and scrubbing. It's possible dding alone will trigger the error, but if it doesn't then scrubbing certainly should.

     

    $ sudo mkfs.btrfs -L testdisks -m raid1 -d raid1 /dev/sdX /dev/sdY /dev/sdZ
    $ sudo mkdir /media/testdisks
    $ sudo chown USER /media/testdisks
    $ sudo mount /dev/sdX /media/testdisks -o user,defaults,noatime,nodiratime,compress=zstd,space_cache
    $ cd /media/testdisks
    $ dd if=/dev/urandom of=/media/testdisks/001.testfile bs=10M count=1024
    $ for i in {002..100}; do cp /media/testdisks/001.testfile /media/testdisks/$i.testfile; done
    $ sudo btrfs scrub start -Bd /media/testdisks

     

    The options on the mount are set to mimic my own. Obviously change the number and name of the devices and the username to match your own. It's also set to create 100 files of 10GB each for a total of 1TB of data; you could try with 10 files for 100GB total first to speed things up, but I've around a terabyte of data on my system so figured it was worth matching the real-world scenario as closely as possible.

  14. 1 minute ago, Igor said:

    Being extremely supportive or being extremely hostile changes nothing in term of support from end users side.

     

    So you choose to attack and abuse... because it'll attract developers? Are you sure about that logic? I can tell you now, I'll certainly not be getting involved in the project's development. Nor will I recommend anyone else to do so.

    2 minutes ago, Igor said:

    If I am polite and supportive to "you", questions (on my time and expense) never stops. It seems you never looked from the giving side?

     

    First, politeness takes no more time than being abusive. Second, I literally want none of your time. I did not call you into this thread. I did not send you a private message. I did not send you an email, an instant messenger, find you on IRC... I posted a message to Kobol, on the Kobol sub-forum, which is maintained by Kobol for the support of Kobol customers. You went out of your way to visit the Kobol sub-forum, find my post, and berate me for something I haven't done.

     

    Like I said, if you spent less time doing things like that and more time bug-fixing, maybe the bills would be lower and Armbian more usable.

    4 minutes ago, Igor said:

    So you do support non-profit open source project.

     

    I very much do, yes. I've created open-source projects, documented open-source projects, maintained open-source projects, donated to open-source projects, and have used nothing but open-source software for two decades. Projects both bigger and smaller than Armbian. But you wouldn't know that, because you made an assumption in the thread you specifically sought out.

     

    Please leave me alone. This is bordering on harassment now.

  15. 7 minutes ago, Igor said:

    You paid for the device or some support with vendor which relationship is not my business

     

    And yet you seem very keen to make it your business. Even when your input is clearly unwelcome.

     

    I wonder how much of the claimed €2,000 a day running costs could be reduced if you didn't spend your time writing posts about how you have no time to fix bugs?

      

    6 minutes ago, Igor said:

    Intimidating people

     

    Nothing to do with intimidation, everything to do with ensuring people know what to expect - and what they can expect is an absolute inability to request support with something that's clearly broken without being attacked by you. It's literally my job to warn people about things like that.

     

    7 minutes ago, Igor said:

    If you want support, request is denied and reasons represented.

     

    I don't want support from you. I'd be happy if you never spoke to me again. I would like support from Kobol. On this, the Kobol forum. Linked from the Kobol website. For the purpose of customer support.

     

    @gprovost Is this really the project you want to tie your company to?

  16. 35 minutes ago, Igor said:

    You were complaining about the software we have created and we maintain.

     

    No, I was not: I was asking the vendor of the network attached storage device I paid for if there was a convenient way of upgrading its bootloader. Your input was neither requested nor desired.

     

    37 minutes ago, Igor said:

    I told you that we have no resources to work on your ideas and that we owe you nothing. What is hostile in that?

     

    Perhaps this is a language barrier thing, so allow me to be clear: you are being extremely hostile. When people post on this specific sub-forum, it's with the expectation they're engaging in a professional discourse with the people who support the device they paid for - i.e. Kobol. They are not attacking you personally, nor the Armbian project: they, like I, simply want to get the device they paid for to work as promised. Jumping down their throat claiming that "we owe you nothing" and demanding additional payment on top of the device cost is hostile.

     

    I'm a technology journalist, and I've already published two reviews of the Helios64 and Armbian on the Helios64. Given your attitude, I will be updating those reviews to warn that unless you're willing to either write the code yourself or contribute to Armbian's - absolutely ridiculous, from your claims - running costs you will not be able to seek assistance with the software - even from Kobol itself - without being attacked. I will further recommend that readers avoid the Armbian project as a whole, and any device which relies upon it.

     

    I feel that you've lost sight of the goals of your project: what is an operating system without its users?

  17. @Igor I've seen you post the same copy-and-paste message to others, and I remain as unimpressed now as the first time I saw it. I'm not asking you, nor Armbian, for support, here: I'm asking Kobol, to whom I have paid money for a commercial product with support, to assist me. If you want to help me, feel free; if not, kindly leave Kobol and its appointed representatives to the task.

     

    I'll be honest: if I'd know about your user-hostile attitude before pre-ordering the Helios64, I wouldn't have ordered it at all - I'd have bought something that ran plain-Jane Ubuntu instead. It's certainly put me off using Armbian in the future, and I'm only still here because I don't want the money I've spent on the Helios64 to be wasted.

     

    @gprovost Thanks for offering your assistance. Here's the output:

     

    Quote

    ~$ lsblk
    NAME         MAJ:MIN RM   SIZE RO TYPE MOUNTPOINT
    loop1          7:1    0   272K  1 loop /snap/bpytop/199
    loop2          7:2    0  57.2M  1 loop /snap/core20/907
    loop3          7:3    0  57.2M  1 loop /snap/core20/877
    loop4          7:4    0    27M  1 loop /snap/snapd/11043
    loop5          7:5    0   280K  1 loop /snap/bpytop/203
    loop6          7:6    0    27M  1 loop /snap/snapd/10709
    sda            8:0    0 223.6G  0 disk
    └─sda1         8:1    0 223.6G  0 part /
    sdc            8:32   0   5.5T  0 disk /media/mirror1
    sdd            8:48   0   5.5T  0 disk
    mmcblk1      179:0    0  14.6G  0 disk
    └─mmcblk1p1  179:1    0  14.4G  0 part /media/mmcboot
    mmcblk1boot0 179:32   0     4M  1 disk
    mmcblk1boot1 179:64   0     4M  1 disk
    zram0        251:0    0   1.9G  0 disk [SWAP]
    zram1        251:1    0   500M  0 disk /var/log

     

    ~$ cat /proc/mounts
    sysfs /sys sysfs rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
    proc /proc proc rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
    udev /dev devtmpfs rw,nosuid,noexec,relatime,size=1869836k,nr_inodes=467459,mode=755 0 0
    devpts /dev/pts devpts rw,nosuid,noexec,relatime,gid=5,mode=620,ptmxmode=000 0 0
    tmpfs /run tmpfs rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,size=389116k,mode=755 0 0
    /dev/sda1 / ext4 rw,noatime,nodiratime,errors=remount-ro,commit=600 0 0
    securityfs /sys/kernel/security securityfs rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
    tmpfs /dev/shm tmpfs rw,nosuid,nodev 0 0
    tmpfs /run/lock tmpfs rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,size=5120k 0 0
    tmpfs /sys/fs/cgroup tmpfs ro,nosuid,nodev,noexec,mode=755 0 0
    cgroup2 /sys/fs/cgroup/unified cgroup2 rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,nsdelegate 0 0
    cgroup /sys/fs/cgroup/systemd cgroup rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,xattr,name=systemd 0 0
    pstore /sys/fs/pstore pstore rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
    none /sys/fs/bpf bpf rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,mode=700 0 0
    cgroup /sys/fs/cgroup/memory cgroup rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,memory 0 0
    cgroup /sys/fs/cgroup/blkio cgroup rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,blkio 0 0
    cgroup /sys/fs/cgroup/net_cls,net_prio cgroup rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,net_cls,net_prio 0 0
    cgroup /sys/fs/cgroup/cpu,cpuacct cgroup rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,cpu,cpuacct 0 0
    cgroup /sys/fs/cgroup/devices cgroup rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,devices 0 0
    cgroup /sys/fs/cgroup/hugetlb cgroup rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,hugetlb 0 0
    cgroup /sys/fs/cgroup/cpuset cgroup rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,cpuset 0 0
    cgroup /sys/fs/cgroup/pids cgroup rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,pids 0 0
    cgroup /sys/fs/cgroup/perf_event cgroup rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,perf_event 0 0
    cgroup /sys/fs/cgroup/freezer cgroup rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,freezer 0 0
    cgroup /sys/fs/cgroup/rdma cgroup rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,rdma 0 0
    systemd-1 /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc autofs rw,relatime,fd=28,pgrp=1,timeout=0,minproto=5,maxproto=5,direct 0 0
    hugetlbfs /dev/hugepages hugetlbfs rw,relatime,pagesize=2M 0 0
    mqueue /dev/mqueue mqueue rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
    debugfs /sys/kernel/debug debugfs rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
    tracefs /sys/kernel/tracing tracefs rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
    fusectl /sys/fs/fuse/connections fusectl rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
    configfs /sys/kernel/config configfs rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
    tmpfs /tmp tmpfs rw,nosuid,relatime 0 0
    /dev/loop2 /snap/core20/907 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime 0 0
    /dev/loop1 /snap/bpytop/199 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime 0 0
    /dev/loop3 /snap/core20/877 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime 0 0
    /dev/mmcblk1p1 /media/mmcboot ext4 rw,noatime,nodiratime,errors=remount-ro,commit=600 0 0
    /dev/mmcblk1p1 /boot ext4 rw,noatime,nodiratime,errors=remount-ro,commit=600 0 0
    /dev/sdc /media/mirror1 btrfs rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,noatime,nodiratime,compress-force=zstd:3,space_cache,subvolid=5,subvol=/ 0 0
    /dev/sda1 /var/log.hdd ext4 rw,noatime,nodiratime,errors=remount-ro,commit=600 0 0
    /dev/zram1 /var/log ext4 rw,relatime,discard 0 0
    tmpfs /run/user/998 tmpfs rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,size=389112k,mode=700,uid=998,gid=998 0 0
    tracefs /sys/kernel/debug/tracing tracefs rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
    tmpfs /run/user/1000 tmpfs rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,size=389112k,mode=700,uid=1000,gid=1000 0 0
    /dev/loop6 /snap/snapd/10709 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime 0 0
    /dev/loop4 /snap/snapd/11043 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime 0 0
    /dev/loop5 /snap/bpytop/203 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime 0 0
    binfmt_misc /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc binfmt_misc rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0

     

    Everything should be pretty standard, except I increased the zram log partition size because I have a server running which generates quite a lot of log data over time.

  18. 6 hours ago, gprovost said:

    Humm that's funny. You can call directly the sub app that is in charge of installing / updating bootloader.

     

    
    $> nand-sata-install

     

    You should use option 5.

     

    Unfortunately, that doesn't work either - and may provide a hint as to why there's no option to install from armbian-config. If I run nand-sata-install, I get a message reading "This tool must be run from SD-card!" - which, of course, it's not, it's being run from the SATA SSD.

     

    Is there a way to update the bootloader without taking the system down, booting from an SD card, updating the bootloader, removing the SD card, and rebooting back into the installed operating system again? Because that's a bit of a slog, especially if the bootloader's going to need regular updates...