USB-C not working on NanoPC T4

[Schnurzl]

Armbianmonitor:

http://ix.io/2BEp

USB-C not working on NanoPC T4 with buster server 5.8y. USB-C port just delivers power but no communication at all.

On debian stretch USB-C is working (tested aigain, HW is OK).

Can someone provide a list with what kernel/image is what not working. I like to use the device for OMV. I guess someone has a list of known/reported issues?

I don't like to test image by image to slowly identify surprise by surprise for each image/kernel.

I like to use the device for OMV including dockers.

[Werner]

19 hours ago, Schnurzl said:

On debian stretch USB-C is working

I am not sure if Debian themselves support this board at all.

 

Anyway I think USB-C may work with legacy kernel.

[Igor]

20 hours ago, Schnurzl said:

I don't like to test image by image to slowly identify surprise by surprise for each image/kernel.

This software is provided you in "as is" manner.  If you want better functioning, you will need to support the project with more then nothing. We also don't like "customers" that:

 

- complains and waste our time.

- contribute nothing to project and software development,

- doesn't respect free support - dealing with your problems on our private cost,

Sorry for beeing direct.
 

20 hours ago, Schnurzl said:

On debian stretch USB-C is working

 

Read this - it will explain you how things. Board is similar but the difference is that your board vendor is actually helping us a bit, while our resources have limits.

[Schnurzl]

Am 23.10.2020 um 17:01 schrieb Igor:

I am realy surprised about such unfreindly responses. Please think yourself what respect is. Who like to support projects driven by such unfreindly developers.

You are providing releases called "stable" but it is not much more than a "alpha" half done. I just tried to give your project a chance and wrote my observations.

Maybe you should focus to support less devices and do a better job instead of complaining your users are wasting your time. Or you just call your releases what it really is.

Give other peolpe the respect you like to get.

 

This software is provided you in "as is" manner.  If you want better functioning, you will need to support the project with more then nothing. We also don't like "customers" that:

 

- complains and waste our time.

- contribute nothing to project and software development,

- doesn't respect free support - dealing with your problems on our private cost,

Sorry for beeing direct.
 

 

Read this - it will explain you how things. Board is similar but the difference is that your board vendor is actually helping us a bit, while our resources have limits.

 

[Igor]

21 minutes ago, Schnurzl said:

You are providing releases called "stable" but it is not much more than a "alpha" half done.

Use alternative software that works. Answering "clients" costs a lot.

 

23 minutes ago, Schnurzl said:

Please think yourself what respect is.

 

Respect has to be earned, right?

 

35 minutes ago, Schnurzl said:

Maybe you should

Contributors regularly discuss where we should turn our resources too. 

 

26 minutes ago, Schnurzl said:

Who like to support projects driven by such unfriendly developers.

 

You don't get it, do you? Public (your) supports share in all years never exceeded 0.5% of the costs. If you are not polite with us, if you push on with the impossible over and over again, you lost all negotiation value. Besides we have a wish list trashcan here https://forum.armbian.com/forum/38-feature-requests/ Few million $, hundred developers and everything will be running stable, wishes solved.

Are you still surprised?

[Schnurzl]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Igor:

Use alternative software that works. Answering "clients" costs a lot.

 

 

Respect has to be earned, right?

 

Contributors regularly discuss where we should turn our resources too. 

 

 

You don't get it, do you? Public (your) supports share in all years never exceeded 0.5% of the costs. If you are not polite with us, if you push on with the impossible over and over again, you lost all negotiation value. Besides we have a wish list trashcan here https://forum.armbian.com/forum/38-feature-requests/ Few million $, hundred developers and everything will be running stable, wishes solved.

Are you still surprised?

Respect starts with how people communicate to each other. Reading the forum and posting from others I learned two things.

1. People reporting issues are not welcome at all.

2. The most favorit answer is "not wasting your time". I know you love to write it.

 

Basic interfaces are not tested/ not working and even a simple reboot is not working - lets call it stable release. Any reported issues - just answer "don't waste my time, we are working for free".

Yes I got it and you "earned my full respect".

 

[Igor]

44 minutes ago, Schnurzl said:

People reporting issues are not welcome at all.

 

You are welcome to talk about issues on the forum - that is its purpose, but addressing to us as you would address to professional support services, will trigger response as such. Read your support contract: https://github.com/armbian/build#support Read it again. If you see something is missing, start contributing today https://docs.armbian.com/Process_Contribute/ and dont asks for more.

 

Do you know what is Linux? How FOSS looks like? Can all / majority of people differentiate what is our responsibility to support or not? Is it possible to provide support at all - if you give us nothing? How to educate people to no overflood us with demands? With what? Is BTRFS bug Armbian problem or BTRFS authors? Is it realistic that a few developers, which are totally over stressed because of "your" common misinterpretation - you don't support at all - could support work after 5000 people? What is your relationship with me? With us?

 

 

44 minutes ago, Schnurzl said:

Basic interfaces are not tested

That is ofc not true.
https://imola.armbian.com/beta/autotest.html

... but bugs always are possible and will be around. Especially when only a few people solve them in their free time. I can only hire people to provide you better support. There is just a small problem  

Once again - your contribution to R&D and support on publicly available open source software is practically zero and there are 1000x more issues than people that could solve it, while you are getting best effort support. We work to improve things every single day, but when this is our costs and because it is impossible to fix everything, we prioritise. If you would provide market prices to solve this bug and say - solve me this - we will probably think about, but since all bugs are almost always 100% our cost, we will only answer you "this is how things are "

 

44 minutes ago, Schnurzl said:

we are working for free

 

Which is why we work on whatever we like to work on. Our help is limited. We can't help you all, but you all could help us much better.

 

R&D is pain. With or without "customers".

[Schnurzl]

Am 8.11.2020 um 19:39 schrieb Igor:

 

You are welcome to talk about issues on the forum - that is its purpose, but addressing to us as you would address to professional support services, will trigger response as such. Read your support contract: https://github.com/armbian/build#support Read it again. If you see something is missing, start contributing today https://docs.armbian.com/Process_Contribute/ and dont asks for more.

 

Do you know what is Linux? How FOSS looks like? Can all / majority of people differentiate what is our responsibility to support or not? Is it possible to provide support at all - if you give us nothing? How to educate people to no overflood us with demands? With what? Is BTRFS bug Armbian problem or BTRFS authors? Is it realistic that a few developers, which are totally over stressed because of "your" common misinterpretation - you don't support at all - could support work after 5000 people? What is your relationship with me? With us?

 

 

That is ofc not true.
https://imola.armbian.com/beta/autotest.html

... but bugs always are possible and will be around. Especially when only a few people solve them in their free time. I can only hire people to provide you better support. There is just a small problem  

Once again - your contribution to R&D and support on publicly available open source software is practically zero and there are 1000x more issues than people that could solve it, while you are getting best effort support. We work to improve things every single day, but when this is our costs and because it is impossible to fix everything, we prioritise. If you would provide market prices to solve this bug and say - solve me this - we will probably think about, but since all bugs are almost always 100% our cost, we will only answer you "this is how things are "

 

 

Which is why we work on whatever we like to work on. Our help is limited. We can't help you all, but you all could help us much better.

 

R&D is pain. With or without "customers".

Other distros call releases alpha, beta, nightly, early release. Stable releases are usually called stable after a longer time of testing and feedback from usesers. I do not understand the difficulties in understanding that. You got already feedback from different users about this issue with usb c and you are aware of this issue for a longer time. So why not adding a note to this release what is not working or not calling it any longer "stable". Open source does not mean name it better than it is - that is windows. Open source is the truth and forthrighness. I know my English is weak. So I would never call my stable.

[Igor]

2 hours ago, Schnurzl said:

Other distros call releases alpha, beta, nightly, early release.

Name one, that can be compared with Armbian. Name one, that deals exclusively with purposely designed hardware only. Name one that is not attached to mainstream and provides support for all those boards? 

Stable release is when basic functions of the hardware works stable:

- rebooting

- stable operation

- upgrading
- networking
- video output (only for boards that have it)

To make it more clear - does the router board needs full support for its 3D rendering chip? Its usually there, but almost nobody will need it.  The same goes with your problem. Its nice to have, but if its expensive to fix ... it will wait.

To secure that stability, it costs us 3000 EUR+ / day while what you seek is not on the menu since advanced expensive features usually never came / came late to mainline. Or they came if someone wants that badly but have time and resources or if someone pays for its development and maintenance. 

 

What is legacy kernel supplied by vendor, where those functions works, but which is also not near stable? Its actually a private kernel, where initial support for this hardware was developed. Its full of dirty code which means all existing code has to be rewritten if you want that it will be accepted to the mainline. To modern kernel, which is your wish. Our project servers as a middle man in this long process and provides functionality already in early stages. A year or two earlier that they would come. 

 

If you want up 2 date support (for all functions) you don't need and you should not bother us. You can grab the code and fix it, you can hire people to do that for you - we are not your slave. You can contribute back or not. Thats open source. Why would we fixing bugs on our cost on top of everything we already free of charge for open source code every day?

 

We provide you a solid ground base - you don't need to waste 50.000. Just 5 or 10.000 to solve your problem. That's the point. If you press on us that we are some amateur lazy motherf* giving you false information and waste your time, step back and think.

 

2 hours ago, Schnurzl said:

You got already feedback from different users about this issue with usb c

 

If we redirect all general donations from two years or if we skip buying new server we need to support your well being it will probably not cover the costs to solve this single issue. 

 

2 hours ago, Schnurzl said:

Other distros call releases alpha, beta, nightly, early release.

Majority of distros have a very simple job compared to ours since they mainly just re-distribute Linux downloaded from https://www.kernel.org/  for single x86 hardware platform while they are changing users space component, "wallpaper" and other thing unrelated to expensive hardware layer. Which is the case here.

 

Armbian provides you build tools and we (co)make that hardware interface for several hardware platforms. But our resources are at a very end of possible.

[Heisath]

On 10/22/2020 at 8:17 PM, Schnurzl said:

Can someone provide a list with what kernel/image is what not working. I like to use the device for OMV. I guess someone has a list of known/reported issues?

I don't like to test image by image to slowly identify surprise by surprise for each image/kernel.

I like to use the device for OMV including dockers.

 

We don't have lists for each board & kernel configuration with all known issues & working features. Also not for every software there is (OMV, samba, ...).  I am sorry you ran into these issues (they are normal in the SBC world I'd say).

 

Would you help us by creating such lists? Just grab a significant amount of the boards on the download page, install the current armbian release and compile lists with features/problems for all software that is interesting. Maybe even create some google docs sheet?

 

Kind regards,

Heisath

[Schnurzl]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Heisath:

 

We don't have lists for each board & kernel configuration with all known issues & working features. Also not for every software there is (OMV, samba, ...).  I am sorry you ran into these issues (they are normal in the SBC world I'd say).

 

Would you help us by creating such lists? Just grab a significant amount of the boards on the download page, install the current armbian release and compile lists with features/problems for all software that is interesting. Maybe even create some google docs sheet?

 

Kind regards,

Heisath

I am not the administrator of your website. I testet recent release and gave feedback what is not working. The USB-C issue is a known issue for a longer time, because it was reported by different users. Who ever is administrating the armbian website can list the reported issues. If you are asking me to adminstrate the armbian website, give me the access.

[Heisath]

No problem. The features listed on the website get more or less compiled from https://docs.armbian.com/ and you can easily create a pull request on github for the documentation to get the USB-C issues listed.

Once the issues are listed in the documentation someone (of the website admins) can update the feature list.

[Schnurzl]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Igor:

Name one, that can be compared with Armbian. Name one, that deals exclusively with purposely designed hardware only. Name one that is not attached to mainstream and provides support for all those boards? 

Stable release is when basic functions of the hardware works stable:

- rebooting

- stable operation

- upgrading
- networking
- video output (only for boards that have it)

To make it more clear - does the router board needs full support for its 3D rendering chip? Its usually there, but almost nobody will need it.  The same goes with your problem. Its nice to have, but if its expensive to fix ... it will wait.

To secure that stability, it costs us 3000 EUR+ / day while what you seek is not on the menu since advanced expensive features usually never came / came late to mainline. Or they came if someone wants that badly but have time and resources or if someone pays for its development and maintenance. 

 

What is legacy kernel supplied by vendor, where those functions works, but which is also not near stable? Its actually a private kernel, where initial support for this hardware was developed. Its full of dirty code which means all existing code has to be rewritten if you want that it will be accepted to the mainline. To modern kernel, which is your wish. Our project servers as a middle man in this long process and provides functionality already in early stages. A year or two earlier that they would come. 

 

If you want up 2 date support (for all functions) you don't need and you should not bother us. You can grab the code and fix it, you can hire people to do that for you - we are not your slave. You can contribute back or not. Thats open source. Why would we fixing bugs on our cost on top of everything we already free of charge for open source code every day?

 

We provide you a solid ground base - you don't need to waste 50.000. Just 5 or 10.000 to solve your problem. That's the point. If you press on us that we are some amateur lazy motherf* giving you false information and waste your time, step back and think.

 

 

If we redirect all general donations from two years or if we skip buying new server we need to support your well being it will probably not cover the costs to solve this single issue. 

 

Majority of distros have a very simple job compared to ours since they mainly just re-distribute Linux downloaded from https://www.kernel.org/  for single x86 hardware platform while they are changing users space component, "wallpaper" and other thing unrelated to expensive hardware layer. Which is the case here.

 

Armbian provides you build tools and we (co)make that hardware interface for several hardware platforms. But our resources are at a very end of possible.

If you like to hear Armbian is the only one for these devices, YES you are right. But I was not talking about the naming of linux releases just for these devices. I really do not understand why you call releases stable with KNOWN issues in BASIC functionality and you think that is the right way? I would understand if you call it stable as long as KNOWN issues are listed right beside the release on armbian web page. I get more and more the impression it is just not wanted. But with this stategy you guide users away from armbian to use different HW. Users are selecting/buying a SBC because of certain specs and interfaces and the presence of existing operating system. Later they understand, OK it was a wrong decision because some interfaces are not working at all >> lets switch to different HW and OS.....

[Igor]

32 minutes ago, Schnurzl said:

But I was not talking about

You are not our customer so IDK what you want. We already lost 500 EUR of our private money just by dealing with you in this topic and you expect from us to make new investments of our private money to level up this service. What you are asking is perhaps a full time job for 1-2 persons which I don't know where to find even I agree with your idea. Yes, that would be nice to have, but it is fuc* expensive and you simply can can't afford to have.

 

32 minutes ago, Schnurzl said:

Later they understand

What I can say? Do research prior buying cheap electronics. That will costs you much more than the actual hardware. Also quality software will costs you magnitude more. If you don't know that, nobody can help you.

 

32 minutes ago, Schnurzl said:

I get more and more the impression it is just not wanted. But with this stategy you guide users away from armbian to use different

 

That is correct. We don't want to do that, because we don't have resources to keep that up to date and because you don't provide even 1% coverage for doing that. If you want that, you will need to do it.  For us its mission impossible. Already explaining you things is mission impossible. You don't (want to) understand.

 

Right now - I have two kids around me, that are asking for time and attention and you will always lost in this game.

[balbes150]

11.11.2020 в 11:02, Igor сказал:

You don't (want to) understand.

Why waste time on trolls ? They are used only to "take". It's useless to explain anything to these trolls. For them, you need to use one answer - with all their requirements and claims, let them contact the manufacturer/seller from whom they bought this equipment.

[Schnurzl]

Am 12.11.2020 um 09:39 schrieb balbes150:

Why waste time on trolls ? They are used only to "take". It's useless to explain anything to these trolls. For them, you need to use one answer - with all their requirements and claims, let them contact the manufacturer/seller from whom they bought this equipment.

OK, we further improve communication style from "wasting time" to call users "troll". Very interesting what happens if a user is reporting an issue.

[Schnurzl]

Am 11.11.2020 um 09:02 schrieb Igor:

You are not our customer so IDK what you want. We already lost 500 EUR of our private money just by dealing with you in this topic and you expect from us to make new investments of our private money to level up this service. What you are asking is perhaps a full time job for 1-2 persons which I don't know where to find even I agree with your idea. Yes, that would be nice to have, but it is fuc* expensive and you simply can can't afford to have.

 

What I can say? Do research prior buying cheap electronics. That will costs you much more than the actual hardware. Also quality software will costs you magnitude more. If you don't know that, nobody can help you.

 

 

That is correct. We don't want to do that, because we don't have resources to keep that up to date and because you don't provide even 1% coverage for doing that. If you want that, you will need to do it.  For us its mission impossible. Already explaining you things is mission impossible. You don't (want to) understand.

 

Right now - I have two kids around me, that are asking for time and attention and you will always lost in this game.

What 500€? How much time do you need to write the phrase "don't waste our time"? I though it is just paste & copy from other threads and you would enjoy writing this phrase. But don't worry I will no longer steal your very important time - bye bye.  ;-)

[Igor]

25 minutes ago, Schnurzl said:

What 500€?

For giving you free advices and explaining you how thing are.  Obviously you thinks FOSS community is a bunch of slaves waiting for you to show up.

[TRS-80]

1 hour ago, Schnurzl said:

Very interesting what happens if a user is reporting an issue.

 

I will try and provide some clarity.  Because this is not what you did.  I mean, you did, but then you also said (emphasis mine):

 

On 10/22/2020 at 6:17 PM, Schnurzl said:

Can someone provide a list with what kernel/image is what not working. I like to use the device for OMV. I guess someone has a list of known/reported issues?

I don't like to test image by image to slowly identify surprise by surprise for each image/kernel.

 

Can you not see how this might be taken as "my time/effort is valuable, but I don't value the time/effort of others because I expect them to do all these things for me, and then hand me the results on a silver platter"?

 

Everything after that just went off the rails.