tkaiser Posted January 21, 2019 Posted January 21, 2019 Armbianmonitor: http://ignorance.stupidity Which kind of idiot 'designed' 4 checkboxes without an alternative each that all have to be checked? What's the purpose of this mess? Anyone awake here? 1
tkaiser Posted January 21, 2019 Author Posted January 21, 2019 What about project goals? Why is this a single person's project? https://github.com/armbian/build/commit/a26ccdee627f1fa27b3285e3840434cddb5aae62#commitcomment-31979374
lanefu Posted January 21, 2019 Posted January 21, 2019 9 minutes ago, tkaiser said: https://archive.fo/8qinJ link didnt work.... but hey I'm glad to see you, wonderin where youve been 1
typoinmyname Posted January 21, 2019 Posted January 21, 2019 hey tk, I am happy you are very fine. read you, typo 1
tkaiser Posted January 21, 2019 Author Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, lanefu said: wonderin where youve been Away. If censorship happens I leave. Ask @Tido since his actions in early October were the culprit (he won't understand anyway). Just tried out the 'new forum experience' and am really puzzled what this BS is all about. So this is now a 'support forum' and not a 'community forum' any more, great! Who signed support contracts with whom? Why is it now important to differentiate between questions for 'supported' boards and the others? What has happened to Armbian?
tkaiser Posted January 21, 2019 Author Posted January 21, 2019 28 minutes ago, tkaiser said: I understand risk beeing banned for providing wrong information! I didn't write this. Presenting this BS as part of a post is ensuring people with at least one brain cell left never coming back again. When I came across this initially I thought @memeka would've been brainwashed just to realize that this forum got brainwashed instead.
tkaiser Posted January 22, 2019 Author Posted January 22, 2019 BTW: My take on becoming or preventing to become an asshole moderator:
Igor Posted January 22, 2019 Posted January 22, 2019 9 hours ago, tkaiser said: without an alternative each that all have to be checked? I don't want to give you alternative ->>> If you don't provide information and want help, go elsewhere. Why? Lowering pressure on support, saving some time. Post, which dragged your attention: is a school example of time being wasted. "10 posts" and nothing was resolved, because the most important part of the information is (still) missing. 9 hours ago, tkaiser said: Why is it now important to differentiate between questions for 'supported' boards and the others? Wasn't this policy here since ever? It also help that Amlogic and Rockchips forums are not getting flooded with "TVboxes Armbian". We still get weird questions there and somebody has to move them. As you can see, there is a lot of moving in the forums. I only want to prevent such problems. If board does not have a supported tag, we always moved questions from technical support to https://forum.armbian.com/forum/23-community-forums/ If you have a better idea ... I don't. @typoinmyname Nice to see you are well too
NicoD Posted January 22, 2019 Posted January 22, 2019 59 minutes ago, Igor said: If you have a better idea ... I don't. Not all questions have to be answered by the Armbian team. It`s a good experience if the community helps each other. Maybe it will take more posts to come to a solution, but most people don`t mind this. If there`s one part where you can/must earn money, it`s at support from the Armbian team. Maybe with a seperate forum spot where only people who subscribed(payed) to this part can post + the Armbian mods. Ask a donation of +1 dollar or so per new topic. So only people who need it will post there. And let the other part of the forum be more free. We can try to find sollutions then, if not we`ll send them to the `Armbian people support group`(not the name I`d choose) I must agree with Thomas that the forum is getting worse with all these rules. @Igor I see you irritate yoursef too much on the little things, things you shouldn`t even have to deal with. That`s not good for you, not for the user, and also bad for the forum. With the smaller payed support you could leave all the other to the community, and only need to deal with a smaller group of people. That doesn`t mean the Armbian team can`t post in the normal forum. It only means that if someone really wants a person from Armbian to handle his question, that he`s going to be sure to reach one of you. Now you read and post in almost every post. Nobody expects that from you, you`ve got better things to do. Just an idea.
Igor Posted January 22, 2019 Posted January 22, 2019 10 minutes ago, NicoD said: If there`s one part where you can/must earn money, it`s at support from the Armbian team. Maybe with a seperate forum spot where only people who subscribed(payed) to this part can post + the Armbian mods. Forums must remain accessible without pay (we had this discussion years ago) but perhaps an option for paid support might be added. Currently, I don't see possibility nor willingness to provide such services. When we start talking about paying for 1st class support and the time for that, list prices kicks in. Those are not amateur/community friendly while average folks on the other hand see: "5 EUR for the monthly support? That's 1/3 of the board price. Outrage!" It would be ideally to rely financing from community not corporate. 100 x 5 EUR is better and safer than 1 x 500 EUR. Whether you pay for support or not, you will still need to provide required info and obey certain rules. If you would waste more time than you pay for support, support provider would inevitably make a loss which can only lead to bankruptcy or stop providing such service. If support provider hire incompetent people to deal with you, you will not be satisfied ... 12 minutes ago, NicoD said: I must agree with Thomas that the forum is getting worse with all these rules. Yes, that was the intention! If you are to lazy to supply logs and tick acknowledgements and expect an answer, which might save you weeks, you simply don't deserve it. From anyone. I am sure this idea could be polished and can be polished, but I don't think it's a bad one until somebody convince me it's bad. 15 minutes ago, NicoD said: With the smaller payed support you could leave all the other to the community, and only need to deal with a smaller group of people. Yes, community is important - I don't want to waste it's time. As you can see this is not about me or about the team. Nobody can answer questions which lack vital informations. Those measures should save time. Everything is community driven - only technical support section have more restriction. 1
NicoD Posted January 22, 2019 Posted January 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Igor said: Forums must remain accessible without pay (we had this discussion years ago) but perhaps an option for paid support might be added. Currently, I don't see possibility nor willingness to provide such services. I agree with that. The `payed` side I imagine must be readable by everyone. So everyone can get his answers there, but not everyone can add his anecdotes to it... 1 hour ago, Igor said: Yes, that was the intention! If you are to lazy to supply logs and tick acknowledgements and expect an answer, which might save you weeks, you simply don't deserve it. From anyone. I am sure this idea could be polished and can be polished, but I don't think it's a bad one until somebody convince me it's bad. It`s clearly not working well if I see this This You can also polish a turd, but it`s still a turd. What you want is to change all peoples behaviour. While punishing the ones who do good. I don`t know/think there is any way in the world to do that. People are people. They do stupid things(I know cause I`m one) You could just not answer if they don`t give the needed info, basic members can/will note to them to add all that. You deliver awesome support, but you can`t do it all(the Armbian team). The forum can only grow(if maintained well), so your problem can only become bigger. That`s why I think finding a way of letting the community do more is a good idea. What if there`s +1000 posts a day? You`re still going to read it all? And I know this isn`t the sole forum you ( @Igor ) help. Many of the questions can be answered by most other users. So without a paying section, you also could use more `power users` who handle new topics, when they can`t help, they could ask help from the correct person. Again just all filosofy and theory
Igor Posted January 22, 2019 Posted January 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, NicoD said: It`s clearly not working well This can also mean that even more radical approach is needed? There will always be people who will ignore everything. 6 minutes ago, NicoD said: What you want is to change all peoples behaviour. Exactly. We do that all the time and it takes some time. 7 minutes ago, NicoD said: While punishing the ones who do good. By asking questions which you are not providing needed data you are wasting time. You are not doing anything good. If it is clear that you weren't even try to search if the topic was already answered, you are not doing anything good ... 10 minutes ago, NicoD said: What if there`s +1000 posts a day? You`re still going to read it all? Since a few years I am already reading only a small part/selected topics of the forum - currently it has between 100 and 150 posts per day. 13 minutes ago, NicoD said: You 17 minutes ago, NicoD said: letting the community do more is a good idea. It is not about me.
NicoD Posted January 22, 2019 Posted January 22, 2019 14 minutes ago, Igor said: By asking questions which you are not providing needed data you are wasting time. You are not doing anything good. If it is clear that you weren't even try to search if the topic was already answered, you are not doing anything good ... I agree with this. But isn't the forum there to help the "users/me"? You are trying to improve your situation here, not the one of the users. I've got the feeling I've got to walk on my tip-toes to not make any mistake that can lead to problems. And if I've got that feeling, I bet many others have that too. In the end it's you who decides in all this, and I have to agree, or stop using the forum. You know I love this forum, it's the main spot to get my information about SBC's. And I love Armbian, nothing in the forum can change that. But when I first came to the forum it was a lot more lively, and more fun. That's not the purpose of a forum. But it keeps users using it. I'll leave it at this. Thanks for all the great work done. Greetings.
Igor Posted January 22, 2019 Posted January 22, 2019 Just now, NicoD said: I agree with this. But isn't the forum there to help the "users/me"? You are trying to improve your situation here, not the one of the users. Technical support section is mainly a feedback to improve Armbian as operating system. We can only deal with Armbian images and our tweaks. That's plenty of work and we have to do something about that. "If you deal with everything you fix nothing" Common issues sections is already on the edge/outside since mainly contains generic Debian/Ubuntu problems, which we don't have intention nor resources to deal with. Armbian specific problems are already enough. I am seriously thinking to move it to less restricted "community" area, where only general restriction apply. More topics in technical support could also mean developers are doing a lousy job in making Armbian. But since overall user base is growing and since we people are lazy by default (I also belong to that tribe), this section also grow. No forum around is happy on opening more topic for the same issue. Over and over again. Technical support questions are specific. They need to contain certain things or they are useless. 13 minutes ago, NicoD said: I've got the feeling I've got to walk on my tip-toes to not make any mistake that can lead to problems. That was also intendenten. When you are putting a pressure and wasting precious time, you are making a damage and if you are aware of this, a progress was made. For all of us. It's like traffic regulations. 16 minutes ago, NicoD said: to get my information about SBC's Yes, that's all about. All this is just yet another SPAM filter. One out of many that we already use. 3
zador.blood.stained Posted January 22, 2019 Posted January 22, 2019 6 hours ago, NicoD said: You know I love this forum, it's the main spot to get my information about SBC's. And I love Armbian, nothing in the forum can change that. Unfortunately "getting information" != "answering the same questions and requesting even the basic info again and again and again". For example, threads like this one would have 1 reply with a simple answer - eMMC CSD checks for revision 8 were fixed more than a year ago. It took 5 posts to confirm that this is the culprit and it is still impossible to tell which kernel version (I mean kernel compilation date) is used due to missing dmesg from "armbianmonitor -u". Funny thing is that this thread was created after the addition of the new information collection form, so we may as well make providing armbianmonitor -u output mandatory with 2 exceptions in dedicated subforums - devices without network connection and devices that failed to boot completely. 6 hours ago, NicoD said: But when I first came to the forum it was a lot more lively, and more fun. That's not the purpose of a forum. Applying your knowledge and experience while at the same time learning something new is fun, and it can happen when you are talking with a person who at least tries to understand what he is doing and who respects your time by trying to provide requested (and even more than requested) information. Reading 90% of threads in the "Allwinner H2/H3" section made by people who expect performance and software quality of at least a $200 PC like a J5005 based NUC7 from a $20 board like Orange Pi PC is definitely not fun for me. YMMV. Unfortunately supporting low end (by price) boards attracts their target audience aka people for whom even the Raspberry Pi is too expensive. 3
zador.blood.stained Posted January 22, 2019 Posted January 22, 2019 Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the current form implementation, but it's only the first iteration. Since "Technical support" section is mostly used as a bug tracker and we wouldn't be able to support a standalone bug tracker / task management system, adding data collection form to the forum is a step in the right direction. 1
Tido Posted January 22, 2019 Posted January 22, 2019 21 hours ago, tkaiser said: stupidity 21 hours ago, tkaiser said: kind of idiot 21 hours ago, tkaiser said: this BS is 21 hours ago, tkaiser said: this BS as 21 hours ago, tkaiser said: one brain cell left 20 hours ago, tkaiser said: an asshole moderator: I guess this speaks for yourself... 1
chwe Posted January 22, 2019 Posted January 22, 2019 12 hours ago, NicoD said: Not all questions have to be answered by the Armbian team. It`s a good experience if the community helps each other. Maybe it will take more posts to come to a solution, but most people don`t mind this. I think that was never the intention that 'armbian people' only answer to questions.. fist cause there are for sure other smart(er) people here and their contributions are highly appreciated. 12 hours ago, NicoD said: If there`s one part where you can/must earn money, it`s at support from the Armbian team. Maybe with a seperate forum spot where only people who subscribed(payed) to this part can post + the Armbian mods. Ask a donation of +1 dollar or so per new topic. So only people who need it will post there. And let the other part of the forum be more free. We can try to find sollutions then, if not we`ll send them to the `Armbian people support group`(not the name I`d choose) Personally I wouldn't participate in such an sub-forum. But I don't spend as much time in armbian when my 'dayjob' doesn't allow it. By paying for support people expect solutions, solutions aren't that easy. If *random hardware feature* doesn't work the pressure should be on the boardvendors side to fix it not on ours. For maintainers spending much more time to keep the project running (e.g. Igor) some sort of a salary might be mandatory and ways to make this possible isn't as easy but I don't think that such a payed supportforum is the way to go. 9 hours ago, Igor said: 9 hours ago, NicoD said: It`s clearly not working well This can also mean that even more radical approach is needed? There will always be people who will ignore everything. how about a less radical approach. Just ignore topics which don't provide the needed information? Those really interested in getting their issue heard/solved may get it that there's information missing. 9 hours ago, NicoD said: You know I love this forum, it's the main spot to get my information about SBC's. And I love Armbian, nothing in the forum can change that. challenge accepted. (we shouldn't lose our sense of humor even if it's a dark one ) Spoiler [personal non rational rant] We had (and if needed I can proof it) and will have always support questions which are annoying. The "I'll get everything for free made by professional"-generation which doesn't realize that they pay with their data doesn't get it that it is somehow associal to ask stupid questions. Everyone saying there aren't stupid questions is just lies to you and if I can answer your question with one of the first three google *your favorite search-engine* hits, it's likely a stupid question. Armbian provides a 'mostly' fine working OS without selling your personal data to random crappy data crawler, therefore it's your job to provide us as much information to get a clue what's going wrong. [/personal non rational rant] Besides that, I'm fine with stupid questions. Even in the field I'm good in (chemistry) I sometimes have stupid questions.. Happens.. but the way you react when you realize that you asked a stupid question makes the difference.. If you start to complain about support and and come up with "but the users are most important" I'll answer you with a polite form of "Go fu... *have sex with yourself*"... If you look at a forum from an SBC armbian doesn't support you'll see that moderators there have some sort of a scheme for questions they don't want to answer - always ends with: believe us we sold 20 millions boards we know what we're doing.. We've to accept that there are people on forums which don't spend as much time on SBCs to get trivial issues solved on the other side, they've to accept that if they're not willing to invest time to fix things on their own/help us figuring out what's wrong, I'm not willing to waste my time with their issues. The first iteration of the new mandatory parts for opening a topic in technical support was a failure: Quote I understand risk beeing banned for providing wrong information! the new version with: 23 hours ago, tkaiser said: I confirm that provided information is true, complete and accurate. is at least not as harsh anymore.. but as @zador.blood.stained and @martinayotte showed (https://forum.armbian.com/topic/9400-does-not-see-emmc-after-component-change/) here, there's still room for improvement. Maybe it needs some days/weeks/months until we have a solution which is "more or less" satisfying but I still think setting some pressure to people to provide armbianmonitor in their starter isn't a bad thing. Cause it is annoying to ask always for it and hope that he gets it after you asked for it 10 times.. (and it's also annoying to find different polite forms of the part from the "personal non rational rant" ) For me this thread should be merged with "Improve 'Support over Forum' situation" - IMO it belongs to it. If nobody disagrees on that let's move it there. 2
Igor Posted January 23, 2019 Posted January 23, 2019 7 hours ago, chwe said: For maintainers spending much more time to keep the project running (e.g. Igor) some sort of a salary might be mandatory and ways to make this possible isn't as easy but I don't think that such a payed supportforum is the way to go. One more full time person is needed for this job. It's already more demanding that I can handle and maintenance jobs are going up all the time. But yes, money which is not that small, has to be find somewhere. 7 hours ago, chwe said: By paying for support people expect solutions, solutions aren't that easy. Exactly. 7 hours ago, chwe said: Just ignore topics which don't provide the needed information? I can ignore a few, but not flood. I already do that. Besides the forum, people try to reach me on all possible communications channels by asking questions and convincing with "this is just a 5 minutes for you" or trying to provide them solution for free or repeat question which remained unanswered on forum ... I do ignore in most cases, but again not all. Sometimes I feel the need to tell them where to go 16 hours ago, zador.blood.stained said: providing armbianmonitor -u output mandatory with 2 exceptions in dedicated subforums - devices without network connection and devices that failed to boot completely. This means adding armbianmonitor -u mandatory to all subforums in Technical support and adding a new one for issues related when you can't supply it? That sounds even better. 7 hours ago, chwe said: should be merged with "Improve 'Support over Forum' situation" Indeed.
Werner Posted January 23, 2019 Posted January 23, 2019 17 hours ago, zador.blood.stained said: Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the current form implementation, but it's only the first iteration. Since "Technical support" section is mostly used as a bug tracker and we wouldn't be able to support a standalone bug tracker / task management system, adding data collection form to the forum is a step in the right direction. Using some kind a bug tracker implementation would be interesting to see how it flows (Bugzilla, Mantis ...). Though when implemented where would be another system where mostly inexperienced users would ran into trouble how to use it.
Werner Posted January 23, 2019 Posted January 23, 2019 7 hours ago, chwe said: For me this thread should be merged with "Improve 'Support over Forum' situation" - IMO it belongs to it. If nobody disagrees on that let's move it there. Agreed. Also these two last posts of mine could be merged. Sorry for that.
rooted Posted January 23, 2019 Posted January 23, 2019 While I have no stock in this I think trying to turn this forum into some RedHat Enterprise type solution is going to fail, SBC's are hobbyist devices. Paid support, really? So you pay to ask questions which are answered by who? I could see someone paying a bounty for a feature or hardware compatibility patch, but not for support. Not now, not ever. *edit*And yes obviously there may be a few outliers who would pay for support, not for support as much as to support Armbian.
Igor Posted January 23, 2019 Posted January 23, 2019 49 minutes ago, rooted said: Paid support, really? Now read the whole thread. There was just an idea which seems nobody likes. 49 minutes ago, rooted said: I could see someone paying a bounty for a feature or hardware compatibility patch, but not for support. Not now, not ever. Do you cover support costs with 5 EUR monthly subscription? Not even close. Yes, people are mostly not willing to pay anything. Agree. But if they would need to, they would. Don't get me wrong - we are not thinking to force hobbies to pay for support, but we can make feel them guilty if they just take and take and take. Most of the heat in this topic is about forcing users that seeks help to comply and at least not making more damage. Remember that Armbian doesn't sell anything. Product is free and support is not mandatory in any way. People Companies who are dependent from support are more than willing to pay for - if you can deliver. It's about the time and attention. If you, for example, want to abuse my private time and attention (regardless what you want from me) in expect informations in some reasonable response time I assume you are willing to pay. If not, communication just stops at that particular moment when this is cleared out. In a few % of this abuse, we find a way and "not now, not ever" support fee actually represent my daily job. It is called "consulting" but that's about the same as "support". Development requests are denied since delivery time went out of the range some time ago.
NicoD Posted January 23, 2019 Posted January 23, 2019 4 hours ago, rooted said: Paid support, really? I don't see why this is so undesired. As I explained it, the forum would still be free, support from other users would still be free. It would be free to read the sollutions found. Only thing I would ask is to give a contribution if you need professional support. Is the time of the Armbian people so cheap then? If you ask a contribution per problem/topic of $1(when the user base can't help, or if they're too lazy to talk to other users), but the user can choose how much he wants to give. I think this could make it that some users donate a lot more than now. You could also make it if the problem is seen as severe, or truly an Armbian problem then you can accept it for free. I don't know if it's realiseable, and if it would work. It's totally not a perfect solution, but just an idea. It could help with the overflow of requests, while bringing in some well deserved money. That's 2 of the biggest problems I think.
rooted Posted January 23, 2019 Posted January 23, 2019 I don't understand why not use ads? AdSense generates good revenue when you have 50K+ unique visitors which I believe you do. I know this has probably been discussed previously. Running a site such as Armbian isn't (necessarily) expensive so why is so much money needed? I mean $100/month USD can run a site with larger volume. *edit*I know Igor has made this his job but I don't know how much revenue you expect to earn from this type of project. I don't think it will ever be enough so you will continue to feel overworked and underappreciated unfortunately. I do wish you luck though.
Igor Posted January 23, 2019 Posted January 23, 2019 42 minutes ago, rooted said: I don't understand why not use ads? 46 minutes ago, rooted said: I don't know how much revenue you expect to earn from this type of project. Because it is too little money and because Armbian is non-profit. I don't expect any revenue, but if we need to hire a full time person, to relieve amateurs, then it means we are looking at additional 30-40.000 EUR/year. If we don't get it, we will not hire. Since we can't provide you more and better service, we have to shrink the project. Saving here and there. 35 minutes ago, rooted said: I mean $100/month USD can run a site with larger volume. Go, try
zador.blood.stained Posted January 23, 2019 Posted January 23, 2019 10 hours ago, Igor said: This means adding armbianmonitor -u mandatory to all subforums in Technical support and adding a new one for issues related when you can't supply it? That sounds even better. First I would change and reword the current implementation - use something like "I understand that not providing requested information will reduce the chance to solve my issue" (current one with the possibility of getting banned doesn't correlate with the forum rules), explain why providing armbianmonitor -u info is needed (I checked a few new new threads and they don't have it), deal with old images that try to upload the info to sprunge.us (i.e. by linking an instructions for updating the script without updating the BSP), ideally deal with the possibility that ix.io may stop to provide its free service one day too, etc. 2 hours ago, rooted said: Running a site such as Armbian isn't (necessarily) expensive so why is so much money needed? I mean $100/month USD can run a site with larger volume. I'll just leave the public download statistics link here. I'm not an expert on hosting prices in EU, but you need to take into account both the storage space and monthly traffic. Edit: clarification - this is daily stats that don't include torrent traffic. 1
Tido Posted January 23, 2019 Posted January 23, 2019 5 hours ago, rooted said: $100/month USD are you kidding me, do you think armbian is generated by some magical artificial intelligence? Or do you understand that ALL together spend about 200 - 500 hours a month into armbian, most of them in Europe and North America. Let's take just 200h x 70 Euro = 14 000.- So, who cares about server cost, but it would be very nice if you (and others) also donate what you can to "at least" support server cost. If a company uses for its products it would be nice they send quarterly an amount, just like they do for Microsoft or Adobe products.
Rosimildo Posted January 23, 2019 Posted January 23, 2019 What is more amazing is how "cheap" these boards and SOC providers are! They should be supporting projects like this, each with like US$ 5000/ month, which would be the low end cost of a resource, monthly! I see developers like BOOTLIN and others going through Kickstart projects to collect some money and do wonderful things with little resources, like the last one about Cedrus! Open source put a lot of pressure on the SW developers, while the H/W providers just expects "support" for free, while they sale their products and expect SW developers just to collect dust! Hopefully one day, this state of affairs would change, since SW development is the most costly piece of any high tech field.
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